S3TC scaling problem

[GcSkaarj]

I'm trying to create some S3TC textures based on textures made by myself. The problem is the scaling, for example: If you subtract the default 256x256x256 cube, and apply a 256 texture, it will be ok, so when I use the 1024*1024 S3TC version of the same texture, it apply overscaled, in other words 4 times bigger that the original.

The normal procedure that I follow is this:
1) Re-scale the 256*256 texture to 1024*1024 (and add some details)
2) Save this as Targa 24bits/pixel.
3) In the UT2004 editor, I have created a utx package and add this texture in it.
4) Compress this texture (in UT2004ED) to DX1
5) Save the package.
6) Use S3TCext.exe (last version) for enable for UE2

What I'm doing wrong?

[creavion]

Woha.. no idea if I understand you right


256 x 256 Texture on a 256 x 256 Poly = Scale 1.0
1024 x 1024 Texture on a 256 x 256 Poly = Scale 0.25

Only DieHard has the tool to compile valid S3TC texture packages.
In the case of GenEarth e.g.
nearly every normal UnrealEd - mapping texture has 256 x 256, while his highres ones mostly have 2048 x 2048. To make this size fit on the same polygon (independed from Surface Scaling) he has to scale down the texture itself to 0.125. UnrealEd offers in the Texture Properties (not in the Surface Properties) a property to scale the texture GLOBAL. This means: Scale a 256² tex with a value of 4 and you have a "1024² texture", ok not really, its the scale, its than equal with a 1024² on the same surface.
UT2004 does NOT have this value with global texture scaling (normally its not requiered anymore through the material called "Texture Scaler"). Thats the problem.
And BTW: DO NOT compress your highres textures in UT2004, this makes it unusable for Unreal and UT as real s3tc package.

In fact you have to give DieHard your lowrest mapping texture package (the one you can open in the ed, with the 256 colour textures, p8-format) and the single highres textures to Diehard, ONLY HE can compile that stuff for you.

[GcSkaarj]

Woha.. no idea if I understand you right


256 x 256 Texture on a 256 x 256 Poly = Scale 1.0
1024 x 1024 Texture on a 256 x 256 Poly = Scale 0.25

Only DieHard has the tool to compile valid S3TC texture packages.
In the case of GenEarth e.g.
nearly every normal UnrealEd - mapping texture has 256 x 256, while his highres ones mostly have 2048 x 2048. To make this size fit on the same polygon (independed from Surface Scaling) he has to scale down the texture itself to 0.125. UnrealEd offers in the Texture Properties (not in the Surface Properties) a property to scale the texture GLOBAL. This means: Scale a 256² tex with a value of 4 and you have a "1024² texture", ok not really, its the scale, its than equal with a 1024² on the same surface.
UT2004 does NOT have this value with global texture scaling (normally its not requiered anymore through the material called "Texture Scaler"). Thats the problem.
And BTW: DO NOT compress your highres textures in UT2004, this makes it unusable for Unreal and UT as real s3tc package.

In fact you have to give DieHard your lowrest mapping texture package (the one you can open in the ed, with the 256 colour textures, p8-format) and the single highres textures to Diehard, ONLY HE can compile that stuff for you.

It works!
Using the DrawScale parameter to 0.25 the texture now fits.
Thanks man

[unregistered]

ex member

[creavion]

Seriuosly, I think thats bullsh1t. I would suggest you NOT do that. 2048² textures need really a lot of memory and space. And this also means, unnecessary performance breakdowns. There are cases where you have to think if it is worth to use "S3TC" or lowres textures / or just 256 colour reduced p8-textures. But in this case, like I said, the texture resolution is really high, makes the REAL use of s3tc recommendable.

E.g this one
http://www.abload.de/img/grmosp1wqou.gif
This is supposed to be a "grass to forest/jungle ground" crossover texture. The Grass is from GenEarth, the brown moss ground is from UT2004 (check DM-SepukkuGorge). I think it fits very well with the GenEarth style. The texture was quickly made, I dont want any "freaking leet" comment for this, its simple and does the trick. Moreover I made it more or less for my own stuff anyway.

http://img11.abload.de/img/grmosp1_s3tcdx3v.gif
This is the highres version, Grass is again from GenEarth - from the DieHard S3TC Highres GenEarth Package of course. The groundmoss is a slightly "pseudo s3tc"ed version of the lowres-mapping version.

Why 2 versions?
1. Not everybody likes S3Tc. Some user prefer the classic look, if it is possible.
2. You can not map with S3TC (wait, I did not test so far that regarding 227g).
3. Sometimes it looks weired. Mega highres textures on some less polygons. This is not a matter from the texture, rather it is caused through the ratio of polygons to textur resolution. (and the lighting of the engine is also everything than perfect).

If you let it compile from DieHard you can offer your map with the normal mapping textures (the normal ones you know from the installation e.g)
Who likes installs then the highres texture package (yes this means MyLevel is a No for s3tc-meant textures).
No need for 2 map versions than.

[GcSkaarj]

Yes, it seems that the S3TC have a lot of problems, so what is better, to create a stanadard 1024x1024 texture .pcx or the same texture in S3TC format?

I know that the pcx palette is very small, but cause less problems, and with the drawscale parameter, both formats work pretty the same.

[creavion]

Make a lowres texture version (lets say up to 256²) - 256 colours/8 bit and a highres version, 24 bit, at least 1024². Import the lowres ones into a texturepackage and the highres one.. NOT, just contact for them DieHard who compiles it for you into a seperate S3TC package. In case you dont understand some things, dont hesitate to contact him, he is really a friendly community guy (:

[DieHard SCWS]

Didnt read the entire post because lack of time. But when i make textures i always start with a 2048 x 2048 base(latelly this is 4096 x 4096 to accomodate the Extreme End packages).



When done i scale them to the apropriate size for the Normal package. The Normal package is the package that you should use in the editor, on servers, and it should be in the zipfile when you offer your map(and textures) to the public.



The Normal package is also used to create the S3TC packages. And dispite the S3TC packages, you need to take great care to correctly assemble the Normal package as everything depends on that package.





A general remark: DONT EVER USE PCX !!! Period !!!

There is no program in the world that is capable of correctly saving the textures for the use in Unreal or UT. You HAVE to use the BMP format as this is the only format that can have the correct index so Unreal and UT can read it.

And if you say, but i always use that for my textures and it works fine. Well, forget it, underneath what you can see the textures WILL be corrupt.



To save the texture with the correct setting can be read on this page: [url=http://www.unrealtexture.com/Unreal/Website/Projects/ConversionProject/Photoshop/CreatingNormal/CreatingNormalTextures.htm]Creating Normal Textures[/url] And like all the pages, its not finished, but it does provide crucial information.



And what has been said above, do not use UT2003, UT2004, or UT3 to create the necesarry dds(DXT) files for the S3TC textures. The compression used in those games do not apply to the official dds(DXT) industrial standards. You have to use the Nvidea plugin for Photoshop, The GIMP or PSP.



On how to create S3TC textures and where to start there is this incomplete page: [url=http://www.unrealtexture.com/Unreal/Website/Projects/ConversionProject/Photoshop/HowToStart/HowToStart.htm]How To Start[/url] Its not complete, but what is already there is very interesting if you want to make S3TC textures, its pretty much a "must have" read.



For what size a certain texture needs to be in a package depends what its used for. But this is also explained in the [url=http://www.unrealtexture.com/Unreal/Website/Projects/ConversionProject/Photoshop/CreatingNormal/CreatingNormalTextures.htm]Creating Normal Textures[/url] page.



Normally you dont go go higher than 256 x 256 but sometimes there is a need for it, and than you can go to 512 x 512 or even 1024 x 1024 pixels. If you need a texture larger than 512 it is very much advised to have S3TC packages as well aside the Normal package. In this way the Normal package is limited to averidge sized textures while the users can choose to install the S3TC packages to gain higher texture quality without loosing fps.
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[creavion]

@pcx: It works well for me with Photoshop CS2 :p

But of course you are overall right. Several years before that I always tried to save my custom textures as pcx and then everytime the same f*ck after the import. But really, CS2 works well. [256 colour mode requiered]

[DieHard SCWS]

It is not always noticable in Unreal the texure is corrupt. So it could very well be it (seems to) works for you.

But to test if a texture really is supported by Unreal you can do follow.

And you need a 225 patched Unreal for this to test.

- (1st texture) Make a texture and save that.
- (2nd texture) Make another texture that has a large spot 100% black in it and save that.
- (3rd texture) Make another texture that has a large spot green in it, and save that as custom color texture (while changing from RGB to Index choose custom palet, and replace the first color in that palet to the green you choose).

- Import the 1st texture by simply importing it.
- Import the 2nd texture and check Masked.
- Import the 3rd texture and check Masked.

If now oné or more textures fail to import, the way you save the files is wrong.

If they all import and show up correctly in the package, than theres the second and final test. Add that package to UT and than open that package in the UT editor. If the textures show up correctly, than indeed the way of saving is correct. If however one or more textures show up garbles with all kinda weird colors, than again, the way of saving the PCX files is flaw.


So even if all textures show up corectly, the final test is UT, if they are garbled than the method of saving and/or Indexing is wrong. And there is no known other way to test this.


But as said, if one of the type textures fails, than the entire lot is corrupt, even if the others show up fine. And the reason is this, Unreal only works from oné palet. And that oné should serve all 3 types of textures. So if it fails on oné, than it fails(invisible) on the others as well. So its simple, if oné is corrupt, the others are corrupt as well.


But a sidenote to your remark is, unless you did above test. The way BMP files are saved IS, and i repeat, IS correct ! Why would you even risk another filetype which is unclear if it will pass an actual test....


The other way around, why bother anyway to not save it as BMP format and use the proper settings. Its the same amount of work, and the filesize is the same(package will not be larger or smaller). So why not simply use the method that prooved itself over the past 8 years.
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[DieHard SCWS]

P.S.

Photoshop 6, 7, CS1, CS2, CS3, CS4 all use the same in and export filters, except photoshop 7 who has a modified, and wrong TGA import Export filters. You need the targa fix to fix that in 7.


The change to index is the same in any version, so theoretically your textures are all corrupt, since none of the settings for indexing aplies to the PCX file format. So regardless what option you choose to make index coloration, it simply cannot be combined with the pcx fileformat. BMP is the only format that is able to store the correct index coloration.


But i would say, save the 3 types i described above and sent them to me, and ill import them in Unreal225 to see if they work or not

- So oné plain texture.
- Oné texture containing black for masking
- Oné texture containing a green area that is used for a custom palet inwhere the first color is green instead black.


Oooohhh, i bet for 10 bucks it will fail  :P
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