More Questions: ratios, real life to unreal?

[destroyer(fbd)]

Soooo.....I plan on making the grandest of maps.  If anyone is familiar with the Mayan culture, or more importantly, the land south of Cancun mexico "Chichen Itza"

its a huge land with temples, sinkholes, observatories, etc.

its amazing, and I'd like to render it so that it  is scaled to real life...

if I find the dimensions....how do I translate that into something close within the game.

for instance...how tall is a player in the game compared to real life.

how tall the temple is in real life, compared to getting it that real "height" in the game.

here are a few pics to show you what im so interested in.... and thank god for Winter break at my university.  1 month, and a week off!!

"El Castillo"

[img]http://x11.putfile.com/12/34822084555.jpg[/img]

the insides of "El Castillo"

[url=http://www.putfile.com][img]http://x11.putfile.com/12/34822124259.jpg[/img][/url]

topographical map (real)  maybe Google Earthed.
[url=http://www.putfile.com][img]http://x11.putfile.com/12/34822262590.jpg[/img][/url]

click that, map of it
[URL=http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=12/34822502033.jpg&s=x11][img]http://x11.putfile.com/12/34822502033-thumb.jpg[/img][/URL]

[DieHard SCWS]

There is a better measurement around, i have seen it somewhere, but this page does offer enough info to go do the calculations your looking for.


http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/Unreal_Unit




Some measusrements:


The size of the world is 65536 UU which is 1248 meters (give or take 1.25 kilometer

0.525 UU = 1 cm
2.625 UU = 5 cm
5.25 UU = 10 cm
26.25 UU = 50 cm
52.5 UU = 100 cm (1 meter)

96 UU = (player height, official height i think.....)

262.5 UU = 5 meter
525 UU = 10 meter
2625 UU = 50 meter
5250 UU = 100 meter
26250 UU = 500 meter
52500 UU = 1 kilometer

65536 UU = 1248 meters being the maximum worldsize.



Here is an online calculator, but you have to set the percentage to 100 % and not the default 140%

http://streamlab.info/real2unreal


But i dont think its very accurate to be honest..........


You can do better with a calculator.
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[TCP_Wolf]

Heh and also keep in mind that most unreal players default to "always run", as opposed to real people default to "walking"

So if you recreate that pyramid exactly, for example, you will still find the "Unreal" version much faster to navigate and run around at, because Unreal players don't get tired running steps up and down...

[Buster]

Also, take a look at a "real world" type map like DmCargo. That one is to near perfect scale. All of the doors and stuff are sized just right to look realistic.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/unrealmaps/dmcargo.zip

[destroyer(fbd)]

Heh and also keep in mind that most unreal players default to "always run", as opposed to real people default to "walking"  :P

So if you recreate that pyramid exactly, for example, you will still find the "Unreal" version much faster to navigate and run around at, because Unreal players don't get tired running steps up and down...  ;D

....

rofl, i can't believe i didn't think of that....excellent point.

this place really was huge, even running to each thing would take a bit.

[destroyer(fbd)]

and now that i got thinking... i run the 226 patch...

instead of uninstalling and reinstalling it when I actually wanna play...

should I just make a whole other directory for unreal or its editor running by the 225 patch?

can this even be done?


say C:\Unreal225

or is there something imbedded in Unreal, that always defaults to a certain part of windows registry ?

because I could see where that messes things up a bit.

[destroyer(fbd)]

another problem i just thought of.

there is a certain height of steps in unreal that a player can continue to walk up, but 1 more unit taller, and it is a wall to them.

Humans, ....especially climbing up large temples...we don't do it in a fluid motion, we take huge steps carefully trying to not fall back down the 70 degree decline lol.

what im trying to say is... the steps are huge....and get smaller the higher you go, which is good for unreal...I suppose.

but, if i were to scale them to how they really were....
players and bots wouldn't be able to run up the temple steps...without jumping up each step?

hmm..

seen in this picture.

[url=http://www.putfile.com][img]http://x11.putfile.com/12/34912190863.jpg[/img][/url]

and woah,....the original file name is

"226%20Chichen%20Itza.jpg"

It's a sign  :o

see how steep i'm talkin here?

[img]http://x11.putfile.com/12/34912211228.jpg[/img]

[DieHard SCWS]

should I just make a whole other directory for Unreal or its editor running by the 225 patch?

can this even be done?


say C:\Unreal225

Yes that can be done , even better, its highly advisable to do it like that. It will keep both Unreals clean, and it makes it possible to run different patches.

Just pay good atttention while installing patches you choose the correct path to the Unreal you want to patch.




Currently i have installed:

Unreal Editing (225f + UnrealEdFix 4):

- XmasEd (for the xmasmap i was working on)
- StargateEd (For the Stargate map i work on with HLK Chris)
- UnrealEd (for general testing)
- S3TCEd (for S3TC package tests)


Unreal Playing(226Final):

- Unreal (for playing with non S3TC textures maps)
- UnrealS3TC (for playing while using S3TC)
- UnrealBackup (i am sorting out all the files for SnipersParadise)

That last one, i use to restore unreal each time when i have a map sorted out, to make sure its a totally clean Unreal.




Apart from that i do have some 5 Unreals (225Ff) installed for each servers (each with their own backup)

So thats some 17 Unreal installed , and there are more scatttered around in my computer lol.




Anyway, you can do that endlessly Just take care that the patch goes where it belongs And you simply can copy an installed version to another folder (makes life a little more easy )


In effect i use for each project its own Unreal..............
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[DieHard SCWS]

As far as steps, here is another page:

http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/General_Scale_And_Dimensions


Take note that those deal with UT, which has slightly different measurements than Unreal. However, it will point to alot of interesting things that you have to deal with.


Theres a minimum height and width you need to be able to play in a map, sometimes you have to make things a bit higher and wider than reallity. Also take in account that players do not like to bump their head when jump/walking, or getting stuck in doors all the time.


Also a Skaarj player is wider than a normal player, so is a Nali player higher than a normal player. (you at least should keep it playable for Skaarj players)


But for UT:

Steps
Maximum: 24 units
Recommended: 16 units

TournamentPlayers can climb any step that is 24 units or less. Using 16 as default stepheight is a smart thing to do, because stuff will align to the grid better that way.

Maybe the same thing aplies for Unreal...........
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[Xavious]

You may be interested to learn that there is a very nice map in the PS2 game Hardware: Online Arena, called Mayan Pyramid. It is very nice. It has a cool thing where if you press a switch-type device, anything not in the inside of the pyramid gets completely fried.

[destroyer(fbd)]

I may need some help on this map

so, would it be wise to create the map in 225?


also, i should just place an actor and build a doorway around his height, and gauge it by that.

[DieHard SCWS]

Dont make it difficult for yourself, just do it all step by step.


Install an extra Unreal, and during installation, name it ItzaUnreal

Than install patch 225f and UnrealEdFix 4 in it.

Create a shortcut from the UnrealEd inthere to your desktop. And you could also rename that shortcut to ItzaEd





As far as building the map, looking at that picture, your centerpoint in the map lies in the middle between El Castillo, Ossario and Chaltun, probably on the 10 from sacbe nr.10



Simply start building those 3 structures around that centerpoint, and keep working outwards. You could also add basic blocks that represent the other buildings, so you will have a crude 3D map where you can walk around and see what needs to be done where.
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[Buster]

Let's discuss ladders, which are just wee little steps.

The maximum distance between the top of one rung to the top of another that a peep can walk up is 28 u-units. The "depth" of each rung (how much space there is to put your foot on) can be as small as 2 u-units. And the minimum width of the rungs can be as low as 48 u-units.

I have made a prefab of a generic ladder (soon to be posted on my website) that is used in a 256 u-units high room with a 32 u-units thick ceiling ...

Each rung is 8 x 8 u-units thick and 64 u-units in length. From the top of one rung to another is 24 u-units. Each rung overlaps the next one by 4 u-units - which gives each a "depth" of 4 u-units. It is possible to walk down this ladder and even "crouch-walk" up it too !!

I have seen Bots climb the ladders I have made - but the pathnode placement is tough to do. Lots of watching the Bots and tweaking the nodes to get it just right. Sssh ... it's a secret. LoL

Here's a link to the .t3d prefab for it (the texture is from NaliCast) and a screenie of it also (the grid scale is set to 8 u-units) ... http://www.members.shaw.ca/projectmap/gen_ladder.zip

[img]http://www.members.shaw.ca/projectmap/gen_ladder.jpg[/img]

[BeWilderBeest]

And remember that putting lots of steps can push the polycount through the roof, especially with wide open spaces. Probably best to point the steps away from the main areas of the map, so as not to stress those players with older PCs.

[destroyer(fbd)]

Dont make it difficult for yourself, just do it all step by step.


Install an extra Unreal, and during installation, name it ItzaUnreal

Than install patch 225f and UnrealEdFix 4 in it.

Create a shortcut from the UnrealEd inthere to your desktop. And you could also rename that shortcut to ItzaEd





As far as building the map, looking at that picture, your centerpoint in the map lies in the middle between El Castillo, Ossario and Chaltun, probably on the 10 from sacbe nr.10



Simply start building those 3 structures around that centerpoint, and keep working outwards. You could also add basic blocks that represent the other buildings, so you will have a crude 3D map where you can walk around and see what needs to be done where.
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[DieHard SCWS]

Actually, you could restore how it was when it was built, if i recall correct, most of the plains there, used to be water basins.

But as said, i am not sure if it was this templecomplex.
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[destroyer(fbd)]

god, I am good.

or so I think.

after thinking about what was mentioned.

I decided to time how long it takes a human to walk 16 feet in real life, as opposed to a player/bot to run 16 feet in the game. (256 uu long)

I should probably test t on multiple times than take an average.

but on a first try, with some rounding.

5 seconds for me to walk 16 feet  was the equivalent to 1 second for an Unreal player to run their respected 16 feet (256 uu's = 16 feet) says http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/Unreal_Unit


so...just throwing this out there, but....if I multiply all things by 5, that should make it feel as if your essentially walking the ruins of Chichen Itza  ;D

what am I getting myself into  :o

you can check out how i guaged this, maybe make some suggestions.

http://mywebspace.quinnipiac.edu/bacraco/SpeedPractice.unr

the level is 225 made,

256 tall, 256 wide, and 1024 long.

the texture i chose for the side walls, conveniently mark each 256 mark (16 feet)

but i threw in some plants too just for s**ts

start at the very back of the wall, and just run until you get to the tan colored wall, i would say it took 3-4 seconds to complete 64 feet (1024 UU's)

1024 / 4 = 256 = 16 ft.

4 seconds / 4 = 1

1 second to run 16 feet for a bot/player....makes no sense, maybe i should doctor that number.

or do more tests and take averages

[destroyer(fbd)]

heres a TRIAL folks....a trial.

its gonna be a beyotch trying to scale everything.

and excuse the ugly sky and backdrops, as I don't know how to do them properly with skyboxes , etc.

this is simply trial.

http://mywebspace.quinnipiac.edu/bacraco/ChichenItzaPractice.unr


Problems:

- staircases of "El Castillo" rise @ 45 degrees. the average inclination of the stepped pyramid is 53.3 degrees.

and finally, the faces of the large terraces/steps are sloped at a greater angle @ around 73 degrees.

- stairs only go to 45 at one time. the real temple has 91 stairs on each side, + one final top platform...

to form 365 days, representing our current year.

time for bed

this is going to be one hell of a project, but the map will include some of the major attractions.

El castillo, venus platform, temple of warriors, court of the thousand columns, the ball court, the Sacred Cenote, and possibly the observatory.

[destroyer(fbd)]

started with this...but it took too damn long. so i went more simple after i got rid of the idea below

[img]http://x11.putfile.com/12/35222430390.jpg[/img]

[img]http://x11.putfile.com/12/35222435640.jpg[/img]

still messing around...


if you notice the shape of the temples sides.

its likes a pyramid with its top chopped off....is there an easier way to do this...because how I did it in this particular practice run....toook freakin forever.

[destroyer(fbd)]

**********
http://mywebspace.quinnipiac.edu/bacraco/Chichen3.unr
*********
[img]http://www.ihostphotos.com/img/233168.jpg[/img]
very rough, far from complete...probably put a good 6-7 hours in that today.  

if you notice, the  9 total levels (terraces) are not at a 73 degree slant...yet!

the staircases are 45 degrees

and overall the average angle of El Castillo is about 53 degrees.

everything is perfect as far as scale.

but i'm far from done...

stuff needs to be texture properly...probably with some custom textures, and something to make it not look so perfect, like making a weird shape, and subtracting out little tiny gashes in the side of this thing

[SirFRagalot_HLK]

as for the stairway problem, heres an idea: leave each step in proportion, but to make it climable in unreal, add a step in between each step (make sure its semisolid) and select the textures of that "in between" step to be invisible

[destroyer(fbd)]

as for the stairway problem, heres an idea: leave each step in proportion, but to make it climable in unreal, add a step in between each step (make sure its semisolid) and select the textures of that "in between" step to be invisible

smart thinkin

did you look around the level? to see the temple?

[UnLeaded]

Looks good so far

[destroyer(fbd)]

Looks good so far

that just inspired me to work a little bit on it tonight.


i'm wondering how I can give the temple a rough look.

had this been Unreal ed for 2k3 or 4, i could use static meshes and stuff, and really add depth and that broken down/ ancient/ rocky feel.

if you see the pic of the actual "Castillo"

its not perfect, there are discolorations and such...i'm thinkin about making a custom texture set based off of all the chichen pictures i found.

[destroyer(fbd)]

i'm gonna need some foliage filler.



i wonder if i shoudl just make a bunch of meshes with vines and shit and have it staggered somehow, to give it an effect of treets....

any suggestions...or does unreal have some tree templates?