OldUnreal (Engine)

I had already a topic with such a poll, but due to misunderstandings, I re-created it.
Maybe I was unclear. If so, I'm sorry for that:

Its one of the questions coming again and again here, so I'd like to collect opinions.
I already asked an almost similar question long ago, but now its still different.
A lot of the engine changes are very different from the older clients, still, beyond any expectations, it was always possible for me to keep compatibility to the older versions.
But full compatibility is impossible anyway, since 227 can support only UGold or 226 clients, due the problems caused by legend when they made UGold.
But aside the engine changes, now more and more script changes appear, which are often very useful, fix problems and may increase performance as well. Changing these things will not break server compatibility with older clients if the server runs only

The community is to small to be fragmented by non compatability.  All must be compatable to keep the game from being fragmented even more.  There is a point to which improvement can be made, however if people desire more than the point where compatability is broken, maybe they should be using a more modern game.  Prime example and how it caused an uproar in the community was the anthology fiasco.  In my opinion when its not compatable its not unreal and will not be accepted by the players on newbies playground and many other players.  Many of the mods and mutators are made for specific game modes and are of little interest to the community as a whole.  The neatest coop mod in the world is not of interest to a DM player.  There are many who run unreal who are not mappers nor code writers.  Perhaps we will be called appliance operators, but the fact is that this is true of the majority of the community.  I think we must remember that Unreal die hards, dont stick with the game because it can do all the fancy things your wanting to do, but they stick with the game because they love unreal, yes with all its inadequate engine malfunctions we love the game, and stick with it as it is.
Its similar to Coca Colas attempt to mess with Coke Classic and its subsequent failure.  The people that remain in unreal are loyal to the game and have accepted it as it is for years.  I am not sure if 227 will be accepted by this type of player if backward compatibility is not maintained.  
"The Enemy of Good is often Better"

Sparky

I voted, once again, for compatibility. For the reasons behind this, see my replies in the older topics.

The community is to small to be fragmented by non compatability. [...]

This perfectly summarizes the whole issue.

I see your point- but still, compatibility is kept until a server admin decides otherwise, so I see not much problems with that, the game could be improved, but nobody is forced to use the new 227 content. I think its the only chance to keep the game alive on a long run, to give some new options, some new possibilities- to bring some players back, or even find some new people to join the community.
The modders and mappers will have new ways to improve existing mods and build new maps which take advantage of the new things 227 provides. Its a step forward.
But thats of course only my personal opinion


@Hyper -
If understood your objections correctly, you are afraid of losing compatibility to older mods and maps- but that isn't the case at all. It still is your own decission as server admin if, or if not...?

[...]

@Hyper -
If understood your objections correctly, you are afraid of losing compatibility to older mods and maps- but that isn't the case at all. It still is your own decission as server admin if, or if not...?

Yes, losing compatibility with existing content (maps/mods) is my primary concern. And I'm glad to hear they stay compatible. However, I'm still in favour of network compatibility as well, although it is not critical for me.

My primary argument for net compatibility: In the unfortunate case that the crashes I experienced while testing u227a are not being solved, I will be forced to stay with 225. If at the same time the net compatibility is broken, I will lose most players at my server.

As far as I know 227 players can join 225 servers. From what I understand none of new things will cause incompatibility. Incompatibility will be only if someone will use 227 content for modding and try to run it on 225.

[...]

@Hyper -
If understood your objections correctly, you are afraid of losing compatibility to older mods and maps- but that isn't the case at all. It still is your own decission as server admin if, or if not...?

Yes, losing compatibility with existing content (maps/mods) is my primary concern. And I'm glad to hear they stay compatible. However, I'm still in favour of network compatibility as well, although it is not critical for me.

My primary argument for net compatibility: In the unfortunate case that the crashes I experienced while testing u227a are not being solved, I will be forced to stay with 225. If at the same time the net compatibility is broken, I will lose most players at my server.

very much understandable. But unless I'm getting a heart-attack or some other case of sudden death (car accident, electric shock etc....), I can assure you that I won't rest until 227 is at least as stable as 225, hopefully better

And yes, Raven is right- 227 clients will be always able to join older servers- this will not be affected as well.

[...]

@Hyper -
If understood your objections correctly, you are afraid of losing compatibility to older mods and maps- but that isn't the case at all. It still is your own decission as server admin if, or if not...?

Yes, losing compatibility with existing content (maps/mods) is my primary concern. And I'm glad to hear they stay compatible. However, I'm still in favour of network compatibility as well, although it is not critical for me.

My primary argument for net compatibility: In the unfortunate case that the crashes I experienced while testing u227a are not being solved, I will be forced to stay with 225. If at the same time the net compatibility is broken, I will lose most players at my server.

very much understandable. But unless I'm getting a heart-attack or some other case of sudden death (car accident, electric shock etc....), I can assure you that I won't rest until 227 is at least as stable as 225, hopefully better

:-)

And yes, Raven is right- 227 clients will be always able to join older servers- this will not be affected as well.

That's very nice. I don't see any reason to still use an older Unreal client than 227 now the widescreen issue is fixed.

New 227 maps and mods with new servers or modified ones means spreading the existing handful of players across even more servers. If this mod was 8 years ago, possibly the game wouldnt have suffered but I think breaking compatability now is a mistake. What we really need is more players and less servers. The work to maintain and administrate a server becomes questionable if no one is using the servers (not to mention the expenses).

With myself and Hyper, you have two serious server administrators voting for compatablility. We do know our users.

I take you very serious, believe me.
And although I believe otherwise, its a possibility to consider.

Ok, as told already, it can't be fully avoided in any case, but if we want to max it out, we can make sure that mods and maps made by 227 without using specific 227 engine features (the new anticheat only works with all features if 227server-227client for example or things as skeletal meshes if you want to name in-game additions) will still be compatible with older servers and clients, and thats it what this is all about- if some of these changes which are the reason for this poll here, were implemented, nothing made by 227 would run on older versions...

and maybe you are right here- avoiding that, the community will not need to split up, instead a break which would force the people to decide, some enthusiasts can try the new content, and the community can decide themselves if they want to use new things and switch smoothly to the new things- if they want and whenever they want, but they don't need to.

My friend and I went to the game store about a month back (about the time 227a was released). He already bought UT3 and I recommended he buy the Anthology Boxset that included Unreal1. He went ahead and got it, and installed it on his PC.

(it must be said that he used to play unreal a few years back, but lost the copy of his CD)

By himself, he found out that he couldn't go online into servers. He found the news on OldUnreal.com about 227a and updated immediately. When I talked to him about it, he said he had "absolutely no problem" with installing the patch and that he saw an immdiate difference in gameplay and loved in particular the decals.

My point is, people who buy anthology and who are forced to update, want features. They want to be able to play the game they once loved with a (new boost). I am positive that adding to the engine will bring back players new and old to this game. Compatibility has ALWAYS been an issue for unreal. Lets face it, people still run 226f servers today.

We have found ways to deal with these problems (running 225f instead). I don't see the difference from the shift from 226f to 225f and likewise going from 225f to 227. Admins just NEED TO DO IT. If every admin does the update for their server, this patch will work at its full potential.

Sparky, you can run 225f and have the same exact server you've always had. 227 people will join it, and you will be able to run it like you do everyday (I even join it and love to play). It is peoples choice to choose the 227 update. I really think in the long run, building this game at is full potential, will make the community multiply.

IMO: if 227 will be the "perfect" patch (most of the engine bugs fixed, some extra features like download redirect, extra UScript and rendering features), I don't see any reason for anyone to use any other Unreal version then anymore. But at current state I have 225f (becouse I sometime want to run a server where everybody can join), 226 Gold (becouse I want to play sometimes RTNP) and 227a (becouse it works best on my machine atm) systems installed. About the 226f/226 Gold compatibility issues is becouse of that not everybody have RTNP or is able to install in 226f on their systems. So if there were a 227 patch which can patch on any unreal version (and would even come with RTNP) there would be no problems for everyone to use it.
So to compare Unreal version 220 with 225f, why keep the old CD version when theres a better patch available?

As for myself I personally wait for 227 most becouse of the redirect feature, and I know its already in 227a but so few use it becouse of the bugs it has in it atm.

My concern about these forward-only features is that new developers to unreal 1 using 227 may not know anything about what is not compatible in the older patches. We may have a few new that compile their mods in 227 and unintentionally prevent older patch clients from joining a server running them.

The chances of that might be reduced if it were possible to flag new 227 functions, variables, and classes in uscript and have the compiler display warning messages to each referenced. Perhaps some type of uscript comment protocol used just above the new function, variable, or class for the parser to read? Even without compiler warnings, if there will be new forward-only features there should be uscript comments indicating what was added in 227 that will break compatibility when referenced.


-Zombie

IMO: if 227 will be the "perfect" patch (most of the engine bugs fixed, some extra features like download redirect, extra UScript and rendering features), I don't see any reason for anyone to use any other Unreal version then anymore. But at current state I have 225f (becouse I sometime want to run a server where everybody can join), 226 Gold (becouse I want to play sometimes RTNP) and 227a (becouse it works best on my machine atm) systems installed. About the 226f/226 Gold compatibility issues is becouse of that not everybody have RTNP or is able to install in 226f on their systems. So if there were a 227 patch which can patch on any unreal version (and would even come with RTNP) there would be no problems for everyone to use it.
So to compare Unreal version 220 with 225f, why keep the old CD version when theres a better patch available?

As for myself I personally wait for 227 most becouse of the redirect feature, and I know its already in 227a but so few use it becouse of the bugs it has in it atm.

Use PowerISO on CD-Unreals

Zombie, that is a really great idea. I agree that new developers wouldn't *know* about a lot of this when making mods. Yes, if everything were flagged, then I think it would make unreal a more satisfying and safe development realm for older platforms.

Great Thinking!!!

voting improved as long as the server reject message says to go to oldunreal.com instead of the default version upgrade message, wich is possible to do..

well...you know me...i really did want full compatibility...but seeing as that i can still run a 227 server and having older clients join even you do the script changes and all...i vote for Improved UScript.

Compared to the number of views, the 14 votes doesnt seem to represent the views of the community. Why dont you take the trouble to sign up and vote. Smirftsch has asked for help on this decision, and the least the community could do is to respond to his request. :-/

don't worry, I hope there will be some more response once 227b is out (just creating the installer)

Compared to the number of views, the 14 votes doesnt seem to represent the views of the community.  Why dont you take the trouble to sign up and vote.  Smirftsch has asked for help on this decision, and the least the community could do is to respond to his request. :-/

I'd just like to point out that the 200-odd views on this thread means there have been 200 clicks on the topic. It does NOT mean that 200 different people have viewed this thread. The number of unique visitors is likely much closer to 30 or 40.

Maybe I am missing something here, but I can't believe this is even a question.   Compatibility MUST be preserved!   And please find a way so that players (like me)  running 226b can still join servers running 227b.

I couldn't believe it when I tried to join HyperDM a little while ago  and got a message telling me I needed to upgrade to a newer version of unreal.

WHAT??????????     Now I am being FORCED to upgrade if I want to keep playing on my favorite servers?

If I do upgrade will I then be unable to join 225 or 226 servers?

I agree that the community is fragmented enough now because of 226f and I fear that this will only make it worse!


I have over 2 years of work in a new mod that I hope will be released sometime soon.   It gives me a headache to think that I now may have to worry about compatibility for yet another engine.


As a Sever Admin and as a Modder/Mapper...

PLEASE MAKE COMPATIBILITY A MAJOR GOAL!


Thanx!

Tentacle-Hunter

If everyone upgrades to 227, there will be no fragmentation at all. I don't know why people see past that.

with a 227 client you can join older servers anyway :p

Maybe I am missing something here, but I can't believe this is even a question. Compatibility MUST be preserved! And please find a way so that players (like me) running 226b can still join servers running 227b.

I couldn't believe it when I tried to join HyperDM a little while ago and got a message telling me I needed to upgrade to a newer version of unreal.

WHAT?????????? Now I am being FORCED to upgrade if I want to keep playing on my favorite servers?

If I do upgrade will I then be unable to join 225 or 226 servers?

I agree that the community is fragmented enough now because of 226f and I fear that this will only make it worse!


I have over 2 years of work in a new mod that I hope will be released sometime soon. It gives me a headache to think that I now may have to worry about compatibility for yet another engine.


As a Sever Admin and as a Modder/Mapper...

PLEASE MAKE COMPATIBILITY A MAJOR GOAL!


Thanx!

Tentacle-Hunter

What you are saying here is simply not correct. You should take the time to read first. This is not about general compatibility, a server admin can still decide if or if not he allows older clients...

If everyone upgrades to 227, there will be no fragmentation at all. I don't know why people see past that.

with a 227 client you can join older servers anyway :p

Cannot join in 226f servers.

Yep, nothing we can do about that.

If everyone upgraded, there would be no "ohgod 225 and gold cant connect to 226"

Everyone can use the patch to upgrade to the same version wich will then allow everyone to connect to the same servers --