The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

[Gamesharder]

I do too like the Sun Spire in this version. No idea why they took the brush lamps out. BSP problems maybe?


There are 4 of these lamp actors here on the roof, the final only has 2.



The weird lights, they are glitches. They disappear when a random lens flare (i.e. a lamp's) is out of the screen. lol

What's an "amethyst mythos"

[Leo T_C_K]

I do too like the Sun Spire in this version. No idea why they took the brush lamps out. BSP problems maybe?


There are 4 of these lamp actors here on the roof, the final only has 2.



The weird lights, they are glitches. They disappear when a random lens flare (i.e. a lamp's) is out of the screen. lol

What's an "amethyst mythos"

That doesn't mean that they are a glitch. Is there no corresponding light actor in the sky really? or an undeleted one and the corona effect remained? That should be examined.
Because there is a corona in skycaves in the distance in the sky if you haven't noticed. That's why I think it was supposed to be something. Besides they have their flares set unique, each of them are different color. I think that's not a "glitch" simply. They come from a specific direction and location. if it was a glitch it would come from location 0,0,0, all of them at once most likely.

Some bug might cause them to get out of view or indeed only visible with other coronas in view but that doesn't mean they aren't there or weren't there, they might have been partially deleted hence why this happens. We don't know until the t3d is investigated or even the unr itself...because the t3d won't have the undeleted actor information unless yrex's tool is used (and the resaved version might have cleared the undeleted actors too so that's no guarantee).

Amethyst mythos is whatever mythos they had about amethyst and other structures/islands that were supposed to be visited. We don't know all those mythos but they were there, some of it could have been known had we had a complete document on maps and not a partial one from the time.

EDIT:
This needs to be properly researched. We shouldn't jump to conclusions. I "think" that those coronas are real and that it might be some distance bug or indeed a leftover.

[yrex .]

I played around and they just look like a glitched copy of the existing coronas.

SpireVillageCoronasTest.png

I think it's parts of the map being "seen" through the skybox, considering that their position seems similar to the position of the map relative to the skybox. Probably a rendering edge case they didn't notice, because the skybox is normally above the map.

As further evidence, here's a similar effect in NyLeve:

NyLeveCoronasTest.jpg

[Leo T_C_K]

Except the map does have some undeleted lights too. They are Light203, Light205 and PlayerStart0 acording to JackHonda what he could quickly figure out. Can somebody restore those lights and see where those are?

[Leo T_C_K]

I played around and they just look like a glitched copy of the existing coronas.

SpireVillageCoronasTest.png

I think it's parts of the map being "seen" through the skybox, considering that their position seems similar to the position of the map relative to the skybox. Probably a rendering edge case they didn't notice, because the skybox is normally above the map.

As further evidence, here's a similar effect in NyLeve:

NyLeveCoronasTest.jpg

Strange, but what coronas were those really colorful ones then? The ones he showed me. I didn't play it so I could only observe what I could see. So this is a common bug in this version of Unreal specificaly, huh?

[Leo T_C_K]

Anyways from what I see, in Terralift and Terraniux some enemies are even more pumped up than in the release version (and they got pumped up there too). Imagine if you didn't get flak cannon in Harobed, it'd be unplayable lol.

Also is Terralift really bugged on all difficulties or just some?

Anyways my last question is: Can the slith feign death in this version? On version 99 and the version I played, they could feign death underwater at least, not really on the land. I am not sure if it was a bug or intentional but sometimes they'd play the death animation and then still get out of it. I wonder if it sometimes happens here too then or it was way gone/fixed.

[Leo T_C_K]

So...basically there are some texturing differences in Terraniux and some errors on doors and the triangular rooms at the upper floor are really opened by buttons like yrex said. In Noork indeed the only difference seems to be the ambushing merc on the cliff.

In Ruins there are few differences like more BSP issues (lol) and skaarjtrooper having automag like seen on one of the preview videos before.

Trench has two Robots instead of one, like pointed to me earlierby jackhonda I believe.

So basically I think I identified at least some differences in all the maps shown to me except vortex2? Can t3d comparison be made to see what is different/undeleted actors examined? Also the same should be done with Chizra as there were no obvious differences unlike Ceremony I think?

It should be put more into microscope in this regard.

[Gamesharder]

Also is Terralift really bugged on all difficulties or just some?

It's not bugged. When I played, the Slith somehow died so the door couldn't open lol

Anyways my last question is: Can the slith feign death in this version? On version 99 and the version I played, they could feign death underwater at least, not really on the land. I am not sure if it was a bug or intentional, but sometimes they'd play the death animation and then still get out of it. I wonder if it sometimes happens here too then or it was way gone/fixed.

I haven't noticed anything like that.

[Leo T_C_K]

Also is Terralift really bugged on all difficulties or just some?

It's not bugged. When I played, the Slith somehow died so the door couldn't open lol

Anyways my last question is: Can the slith feign death in this version? On version 99 and the version I played, they could feign death underwater at least, not really on the land. I am not sure if it was a bug or intentional, but sometimes they'd play the death animation and then still get out of it. I wonder if it sometimes happens here too then or it was way gone/fixed.

I haven't noticed anything like that.

Ah so its that bsp hole near that pipe that killed him. There's a huge hom at the surface of the water, that's usually instakill/falloutofworld bs and somehow it didn't trigger the event due to that or the way this version handles stuff.

The feign death shit definitely happens underwater on 99. Its kind of rare to trigger it but it does occur. And I remember it happening once in that beta version I played back in 1998 on Chizra when fighting them underwater. I was really pissed when that happened, given how young I was and how much effort it took me to take him down. Or so I thought.

[Leo T_C_K]

The Terraniux/TerraLift buffness might be simply the result of the coding that scales the health based on difficulty/drawscale and fatness, thus making it slightly harder than the release version. But I'm just basing it on the impressions I got from the footage. Because JH told me that it seems to be the same, what isn't same is health of Kralls on SkyTown, where they have default health in the beta while in the release version they were toned down for no reason. Instead of stuff like 135. Its as if you were once supposed to loose your weapons at the sky islands and start with dp start. lol

EDIT:
I'll quote him directly:

Just to make sure I rechecked and it seems like only released SkyCaves and
SkyTown weakened Kralls: Kralls in SkyCaves have 120 health, 135 in
SkyTown. SkyBase Kralls have default 180 health.
In May07 SkyCaves two Kralls at the start (the ones who push the Nali off a
plank) already have 120 health, while the others have default 180.

[Gamesharder]

Its as if you were once supposed to loose your weapons at the sky islands and start with dp start. lol

Kinda makes sense. There's a lot of weapons on Sky Town, and remember, the GW Press mentioned an automag and minigun next to the stairwell where you'd come up from.
They were deleted in the 181 version though.

[Leo T_C_K]

More from JackHonda:

Released Bluff, DasaCellars/Pass Kralls have 150 health, while the ones in
May07 maps all have 180.
So it means only SkyBase and Nalic in the released version have Kralls with
full health (aside from the ones spawned by CreatureFactories).

[Gamesharder]

Some things I've noticed while doing a playthrough and random testings:

There's a random gasbag on Spire Village which only appears on Hard and Unreal difficulties sometimes.

Névtelen.png

There's a little event on Sky Town that happens when you go into this building next to the barn, a Krall Elite runs away and closes the doors on you.


This was deleted for some reason from the final version, only the Alarm Point stayed. Maybe you could softlock the doors?

[Leo T_C_K]

Some things I've noticed while doing a playthrough and random testings:

There's a random gasbag on Spire Village which only appears on Hard and Unreal difficulties sometimes.
Névtelen.png


There's a little event on Sky Town that happens when you go into this building next to the barn, a Krall Elite runs away and closes the doors on you.


This was deleted for some reason from the final version, only the Alarm Point stayed. Maybe you could softlock the doors?

I wondered what that alarmpoint was for. Fucking weird. Also fuckin' RAW! that they deleted the entire door instead of adding another trigger/working around it in coop which was completely possible.

I also saw in your footage that random actor sprite appears on isvdeck4 in the beta version itself while fighting the skaarj waves. RAW! RAW! and then those crashes and freezups you had on deck32. ITS RAW

EDIT: I think the texturing on isvdeck1 near the bridge is much better and overall I like the feel better still.

[Leo T_C_K]

Is the see-through bit at the door to sunspire from the outside still there? I'd swear I saw a bit of it in what you showed me but its not clear completely.

I wonder if it was always there that issue or when it appeared, maybe when they changed some things in how the geometry works.

So what's wrong with the Elev17 mover then? Why does it not appear?

[Gamesharder]

Is the see-through bit at the door to sunspire from the outside still there? I'd swear I saw a bit of it in what you showed me but its not clear completely.

I wonder if it was always there that issue or when it appeared, maybe when they changed some things in how the geometry works.

So what's wrong with the Elev17 mover then? Why does it not appear?

The 'see-through' window isn't there anymore.
The elevator mover teleports out of the map. By default, every keyframe is out of the map except for Key 1. Like it was pasted from somewhere.

[Leo T_C_K]

Is the see-through bit at the door to sunspire from the outside still there? I'd swear I saw a bit of it in what you showed me but its not clear completely.

I wonder if it was always there that issue or when it appeared, maybe when they changed some things in how the geometry works.

So what's wrong with the Elev17 mover then? Why does it not appear?

The 'see-through' window isn't there anymore.
The elevator mover teleports out of the map. By default, every keyframe is out of the map except for Key 1. Like it was pasted from somewhere.

Ah. I meant the stuff on the floor before the door btw.

Either way that corpse on spirevillage below the gasbag, it has still the wrong texture while a similar one in vortex2 didn't have it messed up. Weird. I mean it has the female2 texture there. On 227 its fixed on Vortex2 but originally the corpse in the vent shaft had the wrong texture I believe while in the beta it also has it proper.

[Gamesharder]

Ah. I meant the stuff on the floor before the door btw.

Ah, yeah, that's still... there lol

[Leo T_C_K]

So the Kralls and KrallElites were more unique in that regular Kralls fired bolts that had smaller drawscale? Interesting. They should have kept that to make the two more unique or change the color of the bolts for the elites. That wasn't noted down yet in this thread.

I wonder if a "lesser krall" can be made based on this idea with some hybridized skin between the regular and beta krall.

EDIT: I was told by JackHonda that the KrallBolt and Elite one have different colors already. I can't see them though because to me its the brightness that determines it. To me its the same color with my color vision.

[Leo T_C_K]

List of more undeleted actors that jackhonda noticed (i told him how he can check for them):

Bluff:
Light310

Dark:
ASMD0
Stinger0
AutoMag0
Translator0
Eightball5

DkNightOp:

SearchLight0

SpireVillage:

Translator0
ASMDAmmo2

Harobed:

Translator0
Eightball0
AutoMag0

NaliBoat:

Flashlight0
PlayerStart1

NyLeve:

Translator0
ButtonMarker4
ButtonMarker5

Ruins:

Light32

SkyBase:

Teleporter0

SkyTown:

Minigun0
AutoMag2

IsvKran4:

Light60
Light56
Light59
Light65
Light66
Light67
Light68

ExtremeCore:

Light442

ExtremeDark:

Brush240

What the fuck is Brush 240?

Either way if you use yrex's t3d tool you should be able to get the locations of all those.

EDIT:

ExtremeDGen lmao

PathNode24
PathNode25
PathNode26
PathNode27
PathNode28
PathNode0
PathNode29
PathNode30
PathNode15
PathNode31
PathNode12
PathNode33
PathNode48
PathNode34
PathNode48
PathNode35
PathNode37
PathNode39
PathNode36
PathNode51
PathNode50
PathNode38
PathNode48
PathNode49
PathNode40
PathNode39
PathNode43
PathNode41
PathNode42
PathNode52
PathNode44
PathNode45
PathNode46
PathNode47
PathNode50
PathNode51
PathNode52
PathNode9
PathNode10
PathNode18
PathNode19
PlayerStart2

[Leo T_C_K]

Also i'd swear that the KrallElite closing that door is very familiar to me. Like I must have seen it at one point before....

In SkyTown that removed door I mean.

The last bit of failed deleted objects, the number of brushes worry me because if the "model" of the brush is not left somewhere in the map data we can't know how they looked like:

ExtremeGen:

Brush9

Endgame:

Brush11
Brush16
Brush34
Brush39
Brush40
Brush41
Light44
Light38
Light14
Light1
Light39
Light259
Light278

[Gamesharder]

List of more undeleted actors that jackhonda noticed (i told him how he can check for them):

SkyTown:

Minigun0
AutoMag2

I fucking knew it.
I noticed these two actors here on Skytown, behind the stairwell... but they wouldn't show up in the editor.


I tried some methods to recover undeleted actors, but the t3d tool by yrex doesn't work on older maps.
I don't know how JH did it.

[Leo T_C_K]

List of more undeleted actors that jackhonda noticed (i told him how he can check for them):

SkyTown:

Minigun0
AutoMag2

I fucking knew it.
I noticed these two actors here on Skytown, behind the stairwell... but they wouldn't show up in the editor.


I tried some methods to recover undeleted actors, but the t3d tool by yrex doesn't work on older maps.
I don't know how JH did it.

Use the resaved maps by Delacroix. Yes I know that could have gotten riden some of them but usually it doesn't. Because only some versions clear them out and usually only after a second resave or something.

[Leo T_C_K]

List of more undeleted actors that jackhonda noticed (i told him how he can check for them):

SkyTown:

Minigun0
AutoMag2

I fucking knew it.
I noticed these two actors here on Skytown, behind the stairwell... but they wouldn't show up in the editor.


I tried some methods to recover undeleted actors, but the t3d tool by yrex doesn't work on older maps.
I don't know how JH did it.

Those are inventoryspots most likely. They didn't get deleted because they didn't rebuild paths since the deletion.
And those are bhiddened true meaning they won't show up in the editor. Just like buttonmarkers I guess?

[Leo T_C_K]

So finally the logging problem is fixed after days.....
there have been several new finds about this, and I try to post them, without yet posting the possible conclusion that stems from all this. Some questions that stem from this are serious and hopefuly will be soon answered by some of the people who worked on the game.

However I don't have the post ready right now as its on another machine. When I tried to login several days ago it threw a weird error. It was since confirmed that the site was under attack and ever since me and many other people (gamesharder, yrex to name example) have not managed to log in.