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Mover bug

UnrealEd 2.1 (227i) and UnrealEd 2.2 (227j), for Unreal 227. With many additions, bugfixes and improvements. Ask mapping related questions, or give hints, tips and tricks.
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Reorn
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Mover bug

Post by Reorn »

I found "invisible" movers on Dark and Trench.
Version 227 and older.
wtf?
what is the reason for this?
How can I fix these errors?
(in editor or another way)
Image
Image
Last edited by Reorn on Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Reorn
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Re: Mover bug

Post by Reorn »

I found these bugs many years ago, in old versions of Unreal on old computers, and I was surprised to learn that in 227i these bugs not fixed...

I'm interested in reason for this bug...  and way to fix it.
Right way, not random rebuilds with random results.
Last edited by Reorn on Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hellkeeper
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Re: Mover bug

Post by Hellkeeper »

These problems come from the geometry of the map themselves. The huge door of the cargo bay of the ISV-Kran in the map Trench.unr is the most flagrant instance of this issue.

In other word, they are not display bugs (fixable by changing renderer or the renderer's parameters) as much as map design bugs (which are embedded in the map's polygons themselves). Since they come from the way the map was built, they cannot be fixed except by changing the geometry itself. This means changing the map ever so slightly and creating compatibility problems down the line. Considering this, in order to provide full compatibility, patch 227 does not fix them and they cannot be fixed except by doing exactly what you want to avoid: random rebuilds.

The reason behind them is that movers are very unstable in UE1 and the bigger, the more complex they are, the more they are prone to have polygons go invisible, either in all cases or in certain positions or from certain viewpoints.
You must construct additional pylons.
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Masterkent
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Re: Mover bug

Post by Masterkent »

In other word, they are not display bugs (fixable by changing renderer or the renderer's parameters) as much as map design bugs (which are embedded in the map's polygons themselves).
I presume, we could blame the rendering implementation for such glitches too. It seems, it uses a very unreliable optimization which reduces the set of surfaces that are considered as potentially visible (for the given viewer at the given moment). Exclusion of surfaces that cannot be seen under the given circumstances helps to improve performance, but if the implementation erroneously treats observable surfaces as currently invisible to the viewer, it might be better to choose a slower but correct and reliable method instead. E.g., a particular troublesome mover could be marked as always fully exposed to the viewer.
Since they come from the way the map was built, they cannot be fixed except by changing the geometry itself.
If it can be done by tweaking the filtering of invisible surfaces, changing the mover's geometry data would not be needed.
This means changing the map ever so slightly and creating compatibility problems down the line. Considering this, in order to provide full compatibility, patch 227 does not fix them and they cannot be fixed except by doing exactly what you want to avoid: random rebuilds.
Technically, objects inside a map can be altered externally without any impact on compatibility. It's only a matter of time and programming skills of devs who have the native source code. If the C++ sources were available to public, glitches like that could have been fixed many years ago...
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Hellkeeper
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Re: Mover bug

Post by Hellkeeper »

Thanks for the technical insight. I'm parroting the usual speech about BSP bugs in stock maps.
The renderer's failing is probably to blame, yet there are cases where modifying the mover fixes this kind of issues, which leads me to believe geometry is also at fault, if only in so far as it causes bad rendering.
The cargo door in trench is an ancient bug. If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt it is, then it should probably have been fixed ages ago. The fact it has not been surely attests it is not an easy task.
Still, notwithstanding mismatch problems, the easiest way would, I believe, be a slight modification of the map and a good rebuild?
You must construct additional pylons.
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Reorn
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Re: Mover bug

Post by Reorn »

Thank you very much.
I believe, be a slight modification of the map and a good rebuild?
Small modification and rebuild has random result.
Glitches on BSP and movers may disappear, but reappear on next rebuild...

No RELIABLE way for correct visual errors, if level too complicated.
Only "method of trial and error".
This is builder/renderer problem, and big problem for mappers, on complicated user maps.....

Last edited by Reorn on Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Masterkent
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Re: Mover bug

Post by Masterkent »

The renderer's failing is probably to blame, yet there are cases where modifying the mover fixes this kind of issues, which leads me to believe geometry is also at fault, if only in so far as it causes bad rendering.
A good implementation of hidden-surface removal should correctly handle _any_ geometry, unless the geometry data is initially corrupt. If the editing tools produce a corrupt data, then we should blame the editing tools. In general, it's possible to build a BSP tree and apply the resulting binary space partitioning so that non-hidden surfaces won't be ever erroneosly removed as hidden. The question is how Epic's devs implemented the construction of BSP trees and the hidden-surface removal based on such trees. I suspect that either part or both may have errors. They didn't properly implement even much more simple things like replication of mover's movement in online game. F.e., I hardly understand how someone could think that

Code: Select all

SimInterpolate.Y = 100 * FMax(0.01, PhysRate);
might be a decent way to transfer mover's PhysRate to clients. In my opinion, this method has pretty obvious flaws, and in fact it relatively often (and predictably) causes very noticeable glitches in network game. If those devs couldn't notice potential problems in such a simple part, I can imagine how nonsesical their handling of BSP trees could be...
If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt it is, then it should probably have been fixed ages ago.
The problem is that there are no people who would be able to fix such bugs properly. Probably, many talented programmers could try to find a good solution for the given issue, but they simply have no access to the relevant source code.
Still, notwithstanding mismatch problems, the easiest way would, I believe, be a slight modification of the map and a good rebuild?
Considering the current possibilities, I think that leaving everything as is would be the best option (although the issue most likely can be fixed in theory, in practice we don't have devs with access to the relevant source code, a sufficient level of programming skills, and a sufficient amount of free time in order to implement appropriate modifications without introducing 10 new bugs instead).
Last edited by Masterkent on Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Reorn
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Re: Mover bug

Post by Reorn »

I replace these movers to static meshes (attached to invisible movers) and have no visual glitch.
Problem is solved.

But this had raised the question:
may I draw mover as static mesh (in trial, this method not works),
or only attach static mesh to mover (this method works )?
Last edited by Reorn on Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Krull0r
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Re: Mover bug

Post by Krull0r »

Hello :)

No need to attach static meshes on movers. :) You can simply select any mesh in your meshbrowser and right click on the "add mover" button in your toolbar,

There you can select different types of movers and each type has a mesh veriations.
Image
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Reorn
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Re: Mover bug

Post by Reorn »

Hello :)

No need to attach static meshes on movers. :) You can simply select any mesh in your meshbrowser and right click on the "add mover" button in your toolbar,

There you can select different types of movers and each type has a mesh veriations.
Thank you very much.
It was working well.
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Masterkent
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Re: Mover bug

Post by Masterkent »

Meshes (especially big ones) aren't properly lit by dynamic lighting (when a light is emitted by explosions, flashlight, etc). Besides, hacking the standard maps this way probably won't let you play on existing Coop game servers without troubles.
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Reorn
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Re: Mover bug

Post by Reorn »

Thenk You.
Meshes (especially big ones) aren't properly lit by dynamic lighting (when a light is emitted by explosions, flashlight, etc).
That's bad.  >:(
Besides, hacking the standard maps this way probably won't let you play on existing Coop game servers without troubles.
Nothing prevents have copies of standard maps (or Unreal) for internet game.
but I was wondering ways to fix visual glitches, not a certain maps.

UnrealEd have many build/optimisation/visualisation glitches, and no tuturial for bug fixes. I discovered, that version 227 more stable, than previous, but remain a some errors.
Last edited by Reorn on Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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)Leela(-[otS]-
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Re: Mover bug

Post by )Leela(-[otS]- »

Hi :)

These problems exist in many maps and sometimes costed me some headaches. In some cases making a new mover solved the issue. In other cases a simple small movement of the mover fixed it and there were also some which I couldn't fix at all.

But there is one common thing which I noticed over the years. The problem always occurs as a result of the interaction between two movers. For example Mover A starts to move and everything looks fine. Then Mover B starts to move and suddenly parts of Mover A or even the whole Mover becomes invisible or flicker at least.

I've never seen, that this also would happen to a single mover.
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TONI-M
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Re: Mover bug

Post by TONI-M »

I have also seen other problems:
after the flicker the mover remains partially devoid of texture, black or disappears at all
It occurs if you apply so many changes to the environment, such as to improve it.

I can't explain it better, because the translator doesn't translate well. I am Italian
Hi everyone
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TONI-M
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Re: Mover bug

Post by TONI-M »

I advise you to be careful if you duplicate the same mover so many times, it can remain black. I created a prison, and found myself with all the black movers, and what was behind the mover looked black. transparent mover. prison door.
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Buster
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Re: Mover bug

Post by Buster »

Create a studio (a large subtracted cube) off to the side in the map you're working on. Put a light source all around the cube, so the center is lit from all six directions. Make the mover here. And yes, try to avoid duplication. Make each mover, and do so in a well lit studio. It seems to help avoid problems. Sometimes, when a mover is touching a solid at its starting position, the surface touching it won't be lit. I have no clue how to prevent that from happening when it does. Try making a new mover from scratch, and don't get too frustrated when it happens again.
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TONI-M
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Re: Mover bug

Post by TONI-M »

Dear Buster, it's weird ... because he can do it after loading a rescue and not before. Sometimes it stains everything with white, some remains black. From the wolf guide, I learned how to make bows
The level is called the temple on the peak ... With a monumental aquarium and a small artistic garden. a wonderful scale that I copied from the cemetery; considering that where I live there is a monumental cemetery, which to say the least the church of the level the city of heaven is only the beginning ... very beautiful but not like the one I saw. Ciao TONI-M
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TONI-M
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Re: Mover bug

Post by TONI-M »

Can I ask you a question? Does the error arise even if you create the mover by going through all the procedures?
I mean and not recovering it with >from polygons to brush?
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)Leela(-[otS]-
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Re: Mover bug

Post by )Leela(-[otS]- »

Hello :)

There is a possible fix for TheTrench without touching the geometry. This can be done in the map if it's not needed for online play, but could also be done with a mutator which can create and modify actors in a map.

As a compromise you need to alter the sequence of the gate a bit to make it work.
I list the steps here one by one.

1) Set the Event of Trigger8 to None (or disable it)

2) Set the Event of SkaarjWarrior3 to None

3) Modify Trigger0: Event=hatchcrtl, InitialState=OtherTriggerToggles

4) Modify Mover0: Tag=hatch2, MoveTime=8.005000

5) Modify Mover3: Tag=hatch2, MoveTime=8.005000

6) Modify Mover5: Tag=hatch2

7) Modify Mover7: Tag=hatch1, StayOpenTime=20.500000

8) Add a Dispatcher:
Tag=hatchcrtl
OutDelays[2]=14.500000
OutDelays[3]=34.500000

OutEvents[0]=ISVTrigger
OutEvents[1]=hatch1
OutEvents[2]=hatch2
OutEvents[3]=ISVTrigger

This makes sure, that the gate will run without errors. It's important, that Mover7 never runs together with Mover0 and Mover3.
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