logo
Main

Forums

Downloads

Unreal-Netiquette

Donate for Oldunreal:
Donate

borderline

Links to our wiki:
Wiki

Walkthrough

Links

Tutorials

Unreal Reference

Usermaps

borderline

Contact us:
Submit News
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Mover bug (Read 422 times)
Reorn
New Member
*
Offline


Oldunreal member

Posts: 7
Joined: Jan 6th, 2019
Mover bug
Apr 22nd, 2019 at 11:59pm
Print Post  
I found "invisible" movers on Dark and Trench.
Version 227 and older.
wtf?
what is the reason for this?
How can I fix these errors?
(in editor or another way)


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Reorn
New Member
*
Offline


Oldunreal member

Posts: 7
Joined: Jan 6th, 2019
Re: Mover bug
Reply #1 - Apr 23rd, 2019 at 7:36am
Print Post  
I found these bugs many years ago, in old versions of Unreal on old computers, and I was surprised to learn that in 227i these bugs not fixed...

I'm interested in reason for this bug...  and way to fix it.
Right way, not random rebuilds with random results.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Hellkeeper
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Soulless Automaton

Posts: 2761
Location: France
Joined: May 21st, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Mover bug
Reply #2 - Apr 23rd, 2019 at 12:04pm
Print Post  
These problems come from the geometry of the map themselves. The huge door of the cargo bay of the ISV-Kran in the map Trench.unr is the most flagrant instance of this issue.

In other word, they are not display bugs (fixable by changing renderer or the renderer's parameters) as much as map design bugs (which are embedded in the map's polygons themselves). Since they come from the way the map was built, they cannot be fixed except by changing the geometry itself. This means changing the map ever so slightly and creating compatibility problems down the line. Considering this, in order to provide full compatibility, patch 227 does not fix them and they cannot be fixed except by doing exactly what you want to avoid: random rebuilds.

The reason behind them is that movers are very unstable in UE1 and the bigger, the more complex they are, the more they are prone to have polygons go invisible, either in all cases or in certain positions or from certain viewpoints.
  

You must construct additional pylons.
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Masterkent
Developer Team
Offline



Posts: 1269
Location: Russia
Joined: Apr 5th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Mover bug
Reply #3 - Apr 23rd, 2019 at 6:26pm
Print Post  
Hellkeeper wrote on Apr 23rd, 2019 at 12:04pm:
In other word, they are not display bugs (fixable by changing renderer or the renderer's parameters) as much as map design bugs (which are embedded in the map's polygons themselves).

I presume, we could blame the rendering implementation for such glitches too. It seems, it uses a very unreliable optimization which reduces the set of surfaces that are considered as potentially visible (for the given viewer at the given moment). Exclusion of surfaces that cannot be seen under the given circumstances helps to improve performance, but if the implementation erroneously treats observable surfaces as currently invisible to the viewer, it might be better to choose a slower but correct and reliable method instead. E.g., a particular troublesome mover could be marked as always fully exposed to the viewer.

Hellkeeper wrote on Apr 23rd, 2019 at 12:04pm:
Since they come from the way the map was built, they cannot be fixed except by changing the geometry itself.

If it can be done by tweaking the filtering of invisible surfaces, changing the mover's geometry data would not be needed.

Hellkeeper wrote on Apr 23rd, 2019 at 12:04pm:
This means changing the map ever so slightly and creating compatibility problems down the line. Considering this, in order to provide full compatibility, patch 227 does not fix them and they cannot be fixed except by doing exactly what you want to avoid: random rebuilds.

Technically, objects inside a map can be altered externally without any impact on compatibility. It's only a matter of time and programming skills of devs who have the native source code. If the C++ sources were available to public, glitches like that could have been fixed many years ago...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Hellkeeper
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Soulless Automaton

Posts: 2761
Location: France
Joined: May 21st, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Mover bug
Reply #4 - Apr 23rd, 2019 at 10:31pm
Print Post  
Thanks for the technical insight. I'm parroting the usual speech about BSP bugs in stock maps.
The renderer's failing is probably to blame, yet there are cases where modifying the mover fixes this kind of issues, which leads me to believe geometry is also at fault, if only in so far as it causes bad rendering.
The cargo door in trench is an ancient bug. If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt it is, then it should probably have been fixed ages ago. The fact it has not been surely attests it is not an easy task.
Still, notwithstanding mismatch problems, the easiest way would, I believe, be a slight modification of the map and a good rebuild?
  

You must construct additional pylons.
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Reorn
New Member
*
Offline


Oldunreal member

Posts: 7
Joined: Jan 6th, 2019
Re: Mover bug
Reply #5 - Apr 24th, 2019 at 12:44am
Print Post  
Thank you very much.

Hellkeeper wrote on Apr 23rd, 2019 at 10:31pm:
I believe, be a slight modification of the map and a good rebuild?

Small modification and rebuild has random result.
Glitches on BSP and movers may disappear, but reappear on next rebuild...

No RELIABLE way for correct visual errors, if level too complicated.
Only "method of trial and error".
This is builder/renderer problem, and big problem for mappers, on complicated user maps.....

« Last Edit: Apr 24th, 2019 at 2:24am by Reorn »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Masterkent
Developer Team
Offline



Posts: 1269
Location: Russia
Joined: Apr 5th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Mover bug
Reply #6 - Apr 24th, 2019 at 11:07am
Print Post  
Hellkeeper wrote on Apr 23rd, 2019 at 10:31pm:
The renderer's failing is probably to blame, yet there are cases where modifying the mover fixes this kind of issues, which leads me to believe geometry is also at fault, if only in so far as it causes bad rendering.

A good implementation of hidden-surface removal should correctly handle _any_ geometry, unless the geometry data is initially corrupt. If the editing tools produce a corrupt data, then we should blame the editing tools. In general, it's possible to build a BSP tree and apply the resulting binary space partitioning so that non-hidden surfaces won't be ever erroneosly removed as hidden. The question is how Epic's devs implemented the construction of BSP trees and the hidden-surface removal based on such trees. I suspect that either part or both may have errors. They didn't properly implement even much more simple things like replication of mover's movement in online game. F.e., I hardly understand how someone could think that

Code
Select All
SimInterpolate.Y = 100 * FMax(0.01, PhysRate); 


might be a decent way to transfer mover's PhysRate to clients. In my opinion, this method has pretty obvious flaws, and in fact it relatively often (and predictably) causes very noticeable glitches in network game. If those devs couldn't notice potential problems in such a simple part, I can imagine how nonsesical their handling of BSP trees could be...

Hellkeeper wrote on Apr 23rd, 2019 at 10:31pm:
If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt it is, then it should probably have been fixed ages ago.

The problem is that there are no people who would be able to fix such bugs properly. Probably, many talented programmers could try to find a good solution for the given issue, but they simply have no access to the relevant source code.

Hellkeeper wrote on Apr 23rd, 2019 at 10:31pm:
Still, notwithstanding mismatch problems, the easiest way would, I believe, be a slight modification of the map and a good rebuild?

Considering the current possibilities, I think that leaving everything as is would be the best option (although the issue most likely can be fixed in theory, in practice we don't have devs with access to the relevant source code, a sufficient level of programming skills, and a sufficient amount of free time in order to implement appropriate modifications without introducing 10 new bugs instead).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Reorn
New Member
*
Offline


Oldunreal member

Posts: 7
Joined: Jan 6th, 2019
Re: Mover bug
Reply #7 - Apr 24th, 2019 at 9:52pm
Print Post  
I replace these movers to static meshes (attached to invisible movers) and have no visual glitch.
Problem is solved.

But this had raised the question:
may I draw mover as static mesh (in trial, this method not works),
or only attach static mesh to mover (this method works )?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Krull0r
Global Moderator
Betatester
Developer Team
*****
Offline


227 Emitter Expert

Posts: 428
Location: Germany
Joined: Jul 1st, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Mover bug
Reply #8 - Apr 24th, 2019 at 11:28pm
Print Post  
Hello Smiley

No need to attach static meshes on movers. Smiley You can simply select any mesh in your meshbrowser and right click on the "add mover" button in your toolbar,

There you can select different types of movers and each type has a mesh veriations.
  

Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Reorn
New Member
*
Offline


Oldunreal member

Posts: 7
Joined: Jan 6th, 2019
Re: Mover bug
Reply #9 - Apr 25th, 2019 at 1:02am
Print Post  
Krull0r wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 11:28pm:
Hello Smiley

No need to attach static meshes on movers. Smiley You can simply select any mesh in your meshbrowser and right click on the "add mover" button in your toolbar,

There you can select different types of movers and each type has a mesh veriations.


Thank you very much.
It was working well.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Masterkent
Developer Team
Offline



Posts: 1269
Location: Russia
Joined: Apr 5th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Mover bug
Reply #10 - Apr 25th, 2019 at 8:20am
Print Post  
Meshes (especially big ones) aren't properly lit by dynamic lighting (when a light is emitted by explosions, flashlight, etc). Besides, hacking the standard maps this way probably won't let you play on existing Coop game servers without troubles.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Reorn
New Member
*
Offline


Oldunreal member

Posts: 7
Joined: Jan 6th, 2019
Re: Mover bug
Reply #11 - Apr 25th, 2019 at 10:38am
Print Post  
Thenk You.
Masterkent wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 8:20am:
Meshes (especially big ones) aren't properly lit by dynamic lighting (when a light is emitted by explosions, flashlight, etc).

That's bad.  Angry

Masterkent wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 8:20am:
Besides, hacking the standard maps this way probably won't let you play on existing Coop game servers without troubles.

Nothing prevents have copies of standard maps (or Unreal) for internet game.
but I was wondering ways to fix visual glitches, not a certain maps.

UnrealEd have many build/optimisation/visualisation glitches, and no tuturial for bug fixes. I discovered, that version 227 more stable, than previous, but remain a some errors.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo