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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ladder Trigger (Read 3922 times)
Pitbull™
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Ladder Trigger
Dec 13th, 2017 at 12:11am
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I'm currently working on a new level that utilizes ladders. The trigger works but not smoothly IMO. Getting on and off the ladder is a chore to say the least. Have I missed something? I know from playing DS9 The Fallen the ladders have special navigation points to allow for easy exit and entrance to a ladder. I'd appreciate any info on this.
  

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Masterkent
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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #1 - Dec 13th, 2017 at 7:08pm
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Pitbull™ wrote on Dec 13th, 2017 at 12:11am:
The trigger works but not smoothly IMO. Getting on and off the ladder is a chore to say the least. Have I missed something?

No, you didn't miss anything, that system simply uses nonsensical methods, that's why it works in a weird manner. If you want something like vertical stairs and your map is supposed to work under 227i (that is, you're not going to wait for new fixes in 227j), then I'd recommend to forget about LadderTriggers and/or using PlayerClimbing state - I think, it's more easy to implement a properly working mod than fix that stuff.

I'm already considering possible ways to fix 227j implementation because I see a potential need in similar collision checks for climbing and real crouching. After preparing a solution for 227j, I'll think how to transform it into a standalone mod.
  
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Pitbull™
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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #2 - Dec 14th, 2017 at 1:42pm
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I think it just needs some proper navigation points. Should also have a default climbing sound.
  

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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #3 - Dec 14th, 2017 at 2:37pm
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Pitbull™ wrote on Dec 14th, 2017 at 1:42pm:
I think it just needs some proper navigation points. Should also have a default climbing sound.

When you model climbing on a stairs or wall, you shouldn't allow climbing somewhere far from the stairs/wall. If you use the default cylindrical collision for LadderTrigger, then players can touch it (and initiate climbing) long before they would actually reach the stairs/wall. This problem can be solved by using special non-blocking mesh for your stairs/wall, but making such a mesh would require additional efforts from you. Another issue is that if your stairs/wall is not strongly vertical and climbing should be done vertically and horizontally, you can't properly simulate such a behavior with LadderTriggers. Jumping off the LadderTrigger is terrible, it adds velocity to the player in a non-intuitive and really weird manner. Let's be honest: mappers can use this thing only if they either don't care about the quality or don't know how to implement such things in a better way.

I don't have an opinion regarding whether special actors that would help with capturing and pushing off ladders could be useful. Probably, a quality implementation should not require using such things.
  
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Pitbull™
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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #4 - Dec 17th, 2017 at 7:44pm
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In DS9 The Fallen there are path nodes to mark the entrance and exits. Thats where I got the idea.
  

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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #5 - Dec 18th, 2017 at 6:29pm
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Pitbull™ wrote on Dec 17th, 2017 at 7:44pm:
In DS9 The Fallen there are path nodes to mark the entrance and exits.

How are they used there? For AI?

If we were going to support AI-controlled climbing in Unreal, navigation points might be useful for determining reachability and paths. When climbing should be started and when it should be finished can and should be determined based on an analysis of the level geometry around the climbing pawn. The mapper should be responsible for specifying the surfaces which can be used for climbing, the game should be responsible for checking the movement physics.

In particular, we can define vertical or steep (above 45 degrees to the horizontal plane) surfaces where players can climb by adding a special trigger: if a player touches both the surface and the trigger simultaneously, he can climb. Example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2g1slOnKQ

Climbing with ropes and pipes should use a bit different principles. It's also possible to implement climbing using ledges that would not require any triggers at all. Unlikely our character will ever be such a master of climbing as Kyle Crane or Faith Connors, but some cool things can be implemented - it's a matter of time.
  
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Turboman.
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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #6 - Dec 18th, 2017 at 11:57pm
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That's a cool video, that ladder behavior looks much more practical then the current 227 implementation.

I tried using the current ladders in a small mapping project, but for the reasons you mentioned (odd collision, hard to get on-off) i decided not to in the end.

Just wondering, can we also shimmy sideways on these ladders?  and can it also project on multiple surfaces, such as climbing a cave wall all up to the ceiling polys?
  
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Pitbull™
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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #7 - Dec 19th, 2017 at 4:04am
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This all I can get out of DS9 but it somewhat explains what I was talking about to help exiting.

Code
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//--------------------
class CTVE_NavigationAssist expands NavigationPoint
//--------------------
	native;

//-----------------------------
// Used by player and pawns to assist in navigating around the world
//-----------------------------
// VARIABLES:
//
// bNarrowOpening - Denotes a narrow opening (a narrow doorway) where pawns and players
//					should be assisted moving through to avoid colliding with edges.
//					Point the directional arrow in the direction of flow through opening.
//
// MaxStepHeightOverride  - Overrides the normal MaxStepHeight of pawns. Forces step up tests
//							to use this height in order to fit through low openings. Also
//							effects path node building.
//-----------------------------

#exec Texture Import File=Textures\CTVE_NaviMagnet.pcx Name=CTVE_NaviMagnet Mips=Off Flags=2

var() bool	bNarrowOpening;
var() float MaxStepHeightOverride;

//-----------------------------
function Touch( actor Other )
//-----------------------------
{
}

//-----------------------------
function UnTouch( actor Other )
//-----------------------------
{
}

//----------------------------- 

  

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Pitbull™
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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #8 - Dec 19th, 2017 at 10:28pm
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Here's a picture of what I'm using the ladders in. If I can not get them working satisfactorily I will use lifts but the ladders IMO make it better.




  

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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #9 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 8:46am
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THAT is sexy.
  

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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #10 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 5:12pm
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Turboman. wrote on Dec 18th, 2017 at 11:57pm:
Just wondering, can we also shimmy sideways on these ladders?

If you mean a sort of view bobbing, then I didn't think about implementing such things and it definitely wouldn't be on the top of the priority list. If you mean a controlled horizontal movement, then yes, I think that it should be supported, but I still have no decision how exactly it should work. Even when it comes to vertical ladders, there is no any conventional mapping between movement buttons and the effects they produce. The following table summarizes the effects of movement buttons when using a vertical ladder in various games which I currently have on my laptop:


                     Move Forward           Move Backward          Jump          Crouch           Turning from     Strafe
                     View Up/Down           View Up/Down                                          the Ladder


Chrome               Move                   Move                   Drop from     -                No Side          Strafe
                     Upstairs/Downstairs    Downstairs/Upstairs    the Ladder                     Effects

Dying Light          Move                   Move                   Jump          Slide            Lock             -
                     Upstairs/NA            Downstairs/NA                        Downstairs       Movement

Half-Life 2          Move                   Move                   Jump from     -                No Side          Move
                     Upstairs/Downstairs    Downstairs/Upstairs    the Ladder                     Effects          Upstairs

Metro: Last Light    Move                   Move                   Drop from     -                NA               -
                     Upstairs               Downstairs             the Ladder

Painkiller           Move                   Move                   Move          NA               No Side          Strafe
                     Forward                Backward               Upstairs                       Effects

Quake 2              Move                   -                      Move          Move             Drop from        -
                     Upstairs/Downstairs                           Upstairs      Downstairs       the Ladder

Return to Castle     Move                   Move                   -             Crouch           Drop from        Strafe
Wolfenstein          Upstairs/Downstairs    Downstairs/Upstairs                                   the Ladder

SiN                  Move                   Move                   Jump from     Crouch & Move    Drop from        Strafe
                     Upstairs               Downstairs             the Ladder    Downstairs       the Ladder

"NA" means that the player is not allowed to act as specified in the condition above (view down from a ladder, assign a key to crouching, or turn from the ladder);

"-" means that pressing/holding the corresponding button has no any effect when using a ladder.

Moving along walls that have a complex shape needs a well-considered movement convention. Ideally, on one hand, we should be able to move in any direction indicated by our ViewRotation (as long as we keep the distance to the wall (that is, its closest part) short enough), and, on the other hand, be able to climb up or down when looking in a different direction.

Quote:
and can it also project on multiple surfaces, such as climbing a cave wall all up to the ceiling polys?

Strictly speaking, the wall even need not be a planar surface, it has to be something that blocks a player when the player tries (or would try) to move in a certain direction. In particular, it may be a corner formed by two planar surfaces or a vertex of three or more planar surfaces. This situation needs specific calculations, because we can't even say what would be the perpendicular to such a wall. Besides, the player can be blocked by more than one wall at a time. The method currently used in my implemention doesn't work satisfactory, and I have to find a proper alternative to it.

Pitbull™ wrote on Dec 19th, 2017 at 4:04am:
This all I can get out of DS9 but it somewhat explains what I was talking about to help exiting.

Well, that barely describes the logic how it's actually used, and I doubt it could be useful in our situation anyway, unless you want something that would work like moving on rails.
  
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Pitbull™
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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #11 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 6:01pm
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I'm just looking for a smooth exit option. Currently you have to jump to get off. The little bit of code I did post does suggest a forced step. I think that would achieve a smooth exit. I wish I could extract the code from DS9 but I don't have any idea how to do that.  If you'd like to have a look at my map I can share it with you and you can have a look at the ladders.
  

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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #12 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 7:55pm
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Pitbull™ wrote on Dec 20th, 2017 at 6:01pm:
The little bit of code I did post does suggest a forced step. I think that would achieve a smooth exit.

In my case, the hardest part is finding the exact direction where the player should move to when he presses Move Forward / Move Backward / Strafe Left / Strafe Right / Jump / Crouch. Determining when the player cannot climb anymore is a rather easy task and I really don't see usefulness of navigation points here. Of course, you're free to suggest an alternative usable implementation based on navigation points, and then we can compare which implementation is better.
  
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Pitbull™
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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #13 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 8:06pm
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Like I mentioned I can send you what I have so far and you can see what I'm talking about or what I did wrong.
  

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Re: Ladder Trigger
Reply #14 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 8:18pm
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Pitbull™ wrote on Dec 20th, 2017 at 8:06pm:
Like I mentioned I can send you what I have so far and you can see what I'm talking about or what I did wrong.

That definitely makes sense, maybe your usage doesn't fit in the concepts that I keep in mind. You can publish a link here or send me a PM.
  
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