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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect (Read 3222 times)
[]KAOS[]Casey
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Jul 10th, 2016 at 11:32pm
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Leo T_C_K
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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #1 - Jul 10th, 2016 at 11:38pm
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Okay? Are you saying this applies to some specific people in the general Unreal community? Well I can think of a couple myself. Even I used to sometimes go this way I'd say. In the 2000-times especially.
  

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Jaden Darchon VII
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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #2 - Jul 11th, 2016 at 12:42am
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[]KAOS[]Casey wrote on Jul 10th, 2016 at 11:32pm:


He who knows nothing knows everything.... except not.
  
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Carbon
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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #3 - Jul 11th, 2016 at 1:04am
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The key to this 17 year-old research is that you would never know if you are engaged in this behavior or not; that is the exact statement of the effect.

Wikipedia is all nice for a 'for the masses' version of the research, but I would encourage those interested to actually read the papers. If not, you are only cementing the idea that you are too dumb to know what you don't know.

In other words, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Now, we all engage in this type of behavior typically and only through rigorous reflection and self analysis can we even begin to overcome. We call someone who has transcended themselves - someone who is aware of their weaknesses and limitations and has no illusions about themselves - wise. A wise person will always not only question the world, but also themselves in it; knowing full well that they are human and are thus as fallible as any other human. Their thoughts, rationales and conclusions are thus as suspect as anything anyone else has ever thought.

What goes hand-in-hand with this research is what has been popularized as 'thinking traps'; these are cognitive deficiencies or false rationales that people rely on instead of actual knowledge or insight which, in the age of the Internet, have become commonplace, particularly on 'discussion' forums. The 'confirmation trap' is likely the most prevalent.

It has been argued that many people simply have no thoughts of their own; that they are an amalgam of input only, a kind of RAM that is all but incapable of having a truly original thought; output never exceeds input. People just parrot ideas and believe they are their 'thoughts'.

Anyhow, Dunning/Kruger is just one branch of a big tree, or evidence of other cognitive problems. It is interesting, but without doing all of the necessary reading, it paradoxically creates it's own symptoms in people.

The sad truth is that the vast majority of people are simply not intelligent enough to know how ignorant they are; they believe they are thinking, rational people when in fact, they are nothing of the kind. A step in the right direction is to simply stop viewing mass media, particularly news sites. Read about things you believe you know and always question your sources for information, and always search for arguments that are in opposition. Start with sources where the bias is kept to a minimum; academic, peer-reviewed research and avoid going to blogs - or Wikipedia - as a source of new information.

The only truly useful aspect of a Wiki page are the source links at the bottom. Start reading there.

For fun, stop watching television for a couple of years, then go back to it. You will only see something clearly after a long absence from it, then returning to it. For me, I haven't watched network TV (I download select programs that have the ads cut out) in over 13 years and now when I see it, it is highly manipulative, cunning and quite insulting in its' childishness. This isn't only about the advertisements either, but the programming itself. It is painfully clear that we are the ones being programmed, our wants and needs being conflated and we suck it up without question.

I wrote extensively about this in grad school, so forgive my long post. I strongly encourage you to dig into this deeper; it is an incredibly important starting point for some useful self discovery. Sorry if that sounded pompous. Sad I'm an idiot. Smiley

More light reading:

https://psmag.com/we-are-all-confident-idiots-56a60eb7febc
  
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Leo T_C_K
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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #4 - Jul 11th, 2016 at 6:28am
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That's a pretty deep post for a thread including just a hyperlink or starting with it.

I've been already accused of schizophrenia by several people who claimed have done a study at school at least. What's funny is that when I thought about it and started studying the symptomps I found out they are the ones suffering from the disease themselves or more likely to. That sometimes I simply know more or have experienced strange things and sometimes people just mistake snarkyness/humor even if sometimes partly based on real events as something i truly believe in even though I often write it in irony/sarcasm which is hard to detect especially if I don't put "emoticons" in my posts. If they heard me on the phone for instance it would become clear that I am joking or not...simply by my tone of voice alone.

You cannot emulate that online, therefore when they often read it they think i must be insane.

But their insistence and wrongdoing and being convinced they are the ones in the right and that they have proofs while they don't, that's a sign of schizophrenia, a schizophrenia that might be shared between more people and is more difficult to detect because as you said the mass media etc encourages lots of things and so do schooling systems.

One of my childhood dreams was to become a biologist, but I found that going to high schools is gonna wipe away my extra knowledge that I got out of books and going to nature, especially during a time when I was too ill to do so...and that it just gets me away from my goal. That doing this I won't find anything new and my brain will be overloaded with useless information about quantum mechanics and such...and topics that I don't care about and things that I won't ever ever use.

And then one day after switching several schools I found myself expelled from a very "progressive and modern" private high school. One of the reasons why is because I thought for myself. Because I had a specific style of writing and I refused to hammer down to me something else, to adopt it, to become like them. I wanted to do it my way and ignore it.

But of course it won't work, it won't work until they process you and program you and then I realized that the west schools and modern schools, all of them do it. And I compared the writings in newspapers from these students to other students from state funded schools and I found out surprisingly that the students from the modern style school all wrote like a single person, like they had no mind of their own at all. While the ones from normal school all wrote very different things and they spoke with open mind, not an empty "feels open" mind like the other ones, only spewing out praise and nothing else to be "correct".

The school in question was supported and funded by giants like Google, Lenovo etc too in their "IT" department...
  

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Carbon
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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #5 - Jul 11th, 2016 at 7:21am
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Dunning/Kruger isn't a disease Leo, not at all in line with schizophrenia, which is a true disorder.

Now, education isn't what you claim it is. You seem to be exemplifying the effect discussed above!

We cannot adhere only to what we think we will find useful in life because we truly have no idea what the future will hold and what will be needed when.

Education isn't a job/career/ or even just an interest training ground. In order to develop certain aspects of your cognition and intellect, a variety of input is necessary. To 'round out' an intellect is to provide a broad spectrum of knowledge from many disciplines; this is learning to develop or learning to learn.

In my life, I can say that I have never taken a course that didn't benefit me somehow; that I wasn't a better person for having taken it. Then again, I genuinely like learning and, being the pragmatist that I am, always see a way that things can enrich my life. Overall competency enhancement is a good way to look at it.

Education isn't perfect Leo, I will grant you that, but I would also claim that you need to understand what learning means before it can be understood and then beneficial.

You should do some reading about epistemology...you might like it and it can be a nice gateway to develop new attitudes towards the scope and function of education.
  
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[]KAOS[]Casey
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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #6 - Jul 11th, 2016 at 7:34am
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Oh wow, I posted this to raise awareness and it looks like it really swung in a great direction with some serious info

Thanks Carbon!
  
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Carbon
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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #7 - Jul 11th, 2016 at 7:47am
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[]KAOS[]Casey wrote on Jul 11th, 2016 at 7:34am:
Oh wow, I posted this to raise awareness and it looks like it really swung in a great direction with some serious info

Thanks Carbon!


Smiley

It's a great topic. It really opened my eyes when I researched it many years ago and I think it's a great way to make meaningful and lasting changes to ourselves. From the article I linked previously:

"For individuals, the trick is to be your own devil’s advocate: to think through how your favored conclusions might be misguided; to ask yourself how you might be wrong, or how things might turn out differently from what you expect. It helps to try practicing what the psychologist Charles Lord calls “considering the opposite.” "
« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2016 at 10:54pm by Carbon »  
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Leo T_C_K
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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #8 - Jul 11th, 2016 at 8:41am
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Carbon wrote on Jul 11th, 2016 at 7:21am:
Dunning/Kruger isn't a disease Leo, not at all in line with schizophrenia, which is a true disorder.

Now, education isn't what you claim it is. You seem to be exemplifying the effect discussed above!

We cannot adhere only to what we think we will find useful in life because we truly have no idea what the future will hold and what will be needed when.

Education isn't a job/career/ or even just an interest training ground. In order to develop certain aspects of your cognition and intellect, a variety of input is necessary. To 'round out' an intellect is to provide a broad spectrum of knowledge from many disciplines; this is learning to develop or learning to learn.

In my life, I can say that I have never taken a course that didn't benefit me somehow; that I wasn't a better person for having taken it. Then again, I genuinely like learning and, being the pragmatist that I am, always see a way that things can enrich my life. Overall competency enhancement is a good way to look at it.

Education isn't perfect Leo, I will grant you that, but I would also claim that you need to understand what learning means before it can be understood and then beneficial.

You should do some reading about epistemology...you might like it and it can be a nice gateway to develop new attitudes towards the scope and function of education.

I'm sorry but I cannot take this at value. Because I've been through it. Education shouldn't mean brainwashing. It shouldn't mean it shapes you up acording to the books. There's something called personality that gets destroyed in it. I've seen so many being turned into nothing thanks to it. How the hell would I display signs of what's been discussed above.

I didn't equate schizophrenia with this, you did. (to explain further so you can understand, you made it seem I equated schizophrenia with this, therefore you equated schizophrenia with the effect)

I was talking about two separate matters. People seem to have trouble distinguishing it.

EDIT:
The reason I started discussing schizophrenia is even though the Freddy Kruger effect has been discussed and is not a disease acording to this, schizophrenia on itself may not be considered disease if you take a look at it from a different point of view either.

It just comes down to psychobabble.

Another reason is it's been brought up with me several times by now. And I thought I'd elaborate.
Different backgrounds/different knowledge. I have a knowledge of things many people don't have and instead of following something that's agreed on in the west, I came to many different conclusions.
I met some people who have also invalidated some physical laws we think exist but they might be fundamentally wrong and people are in effect damaging themselves by using certain modern things that they've been convinced is good for them.
The reason they won't be heard out is because too much of the modern world depends on how things are instead of re-inventing the basics. Which would make more sense and on the long term be more beneficial. But well...
  

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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #9 - Jul 11th, 2016 at 8:54am
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So you were just off-topic then. I see.

Sorry education didn't work out for you. Until you get past undergrad, it does seem rigid. If you hang in there, it gets much better, but you have to earn that intellectual liberation! Smiley
  
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Leo T_C_K
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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #10 - Jul 11th, 2016 at 8:57am
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Carbon wrote on Jul 11th, 2016 at 8:54am:
Sorry education didn't work out for you. Until you get past undergrad, it does seem rigid. If you hang in there, it gets much better, but you have to earn that intellectual liberation! Smiley

Sorry but you kinda seem to be missing the point here. In the primary/secondary school I used to be the geek (or nerd more like), best grades or among the best apart from few like the gym lessons and similar but I had a scoliosis and other things that prevented me from taking part in certain things. The teacher didn't care at the time....

This has nothing to do with intellectual liberation. This has to do with refusing to do things certain way which I have already learned on my own. Therefore it would come to intellectual degradation.
  

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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #11 - Jul 11th, 2016 at 11:31am
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I didn't miss the point, I was actually just trying to avoid it. Smiley

Leo, you know very well that I care about you and have huge respect for you. If you want to discuss Dunning/Kruger, then great. If you want to discuss education, then great, but can we not do it more objectively?

For every horror story you personally have, I have a hundred that counter it, found within the successes of my students and from my colleagues. Don't forget that I teach for a living; I am a professor of art and applied aesthetics and thus am unlikely to agree with your opinions regarding the value of education. I am not blind to the problems that can and do exist within formal education, but I firmly believe - with abundant objective evidence to support this belief - that we are progressing.

If it wasn't right for you, then fine, but that kind of subjectivity doesn't create a 'discussion'; that would just be us listening to one another at best. There would be no light at the end of that tunnel, just more tunnel; an unending circle of contradiction, as all opinionated interactions typically play out.

Again, I would very much enjoy a discussion, so I am not trying to cut this off at the knees. I would however, like facts to play a more prominent role and opinion less so.
  
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Jaden Darchon VII
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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #12 - Jul 11th, 2016 at 5:46pm
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Wow, Carbon. Color me impressed! Your grasp of psychological underpinnings is pretty awesome. I agree with you strongly on several points and urge other readers to take a mental step back and detach themselves from the ego (as loaded of a term as that is, requiring heavy research that even I'm still lacking in) and, as stated, analyze the thread objectively.

This thread isn't about bashing anyone. Attempting to twist it to a personal campaign is not doing the thread any favors and is going to kill discussion (resulting in the usual "thread locked" status which would be a shame).

Once you become aware of the routines and patterns that the mind is accustomed to, you can work to identify and surpass these to become more balanced and wise. The greatest enemy is the self, as they say, but in truth there is a greater enemy about as man has a tendency to relish controlling man. I too abandoned television (with the exception of the occasional netflix movie :p) for the passed 8 years and am in the same position, noting its immature and outright obvious attempts at mind control. Television is laden with promises of instant gratification, sexualization of objects to enhance sales/interest and reaffirmations that the lifestyle the viewer is living - as prescribed by the content curators themselves - is the only way to live (which brings to mind an old 60's song we touched upon in school that ridicules conformity - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Boxes).

Perhaps taking it a step further - if we cannot entirely trust our own tendencies to exhibit these behaviors, can we even trust our senses? Can we trust reality? I believe the wise man is in a blurry, hybrid state of both accepting and questioning that which is, all the while armed with the tools to surpass the ego (pride, personal gain, self-ridicule, etc.) in his quest for inner peace and understanding. The first step is mental detoxification and it takes time to cleanse and undo the programming so many of us are subjected to through both the formative years and beyond. For those of us in our adult years, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity works against us in rejecting old habits and emplacing better ones, but it is most definitely possible. Smiley

edit: I notice I've been addressing the reader in the second person. Before my post gets put through the blender + kaleidoscope of Baggage Personalization Technology, here's a disclaimer: my usage of "you" is not addressing anyone specifically, but rather whoever is reading it. There is no personal agenda with this post and it's sad that I have to preemptively defend myself as is the norm here. In fact, any attempt to squabble over opinionated/personal claims I'm going to flat out ignore.
  
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Leo T_C_K
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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #13 - Jul 11th, 2016 at 6:55pm
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So what you're saying is you're throwing away personality. I am not sure I agree about the TV mind control. I've seen some TVs seem to do it more than others and particular countries are worse than others. I lived without TV for years in practice, when i was in the netherlands I wasn't watching because it wasn't worth it and it was too stupid in general and I only got to watch a bit of TV at someone else's.

I don't agree with any of you when it comes down to it right now. I have my own reasons. But it's not fine if I explain away a bit? If I start telling personal stories? You're starting to counter that you have countless more to counter. Why would you even try to counter?

Why do you even want to "conform" me into this? I've been there you know. I've been processed and I know what it feels like and I know how different it is from real life. I won't accept these "reality twists", for their own sheer insanity.

You're probably not even aware of what you've been becoming over these years.

But it's wrong for me to explain because you'll start attacking me, start attacking me for having "political opinions" and discussing politics is not what people want to see here, RIGHT?

You don't even want me to live. You want me to be trapped in a bee hive.
You forgot, yourself. You do exhibit symptompts of hive minds. But I know it's artificial.

EDIT:
Btw if you think the TV is controlling you, perhaps there is something wrong with your mind. Perhaps something was wrong with me too. Until I woke up from it. Perhaps it's not natural for you to be controlled in general. You need to find the inner strength. But my words probably mean little to you. You need to take it from the point of you and you only. But it's, especially with the way you're set into the "hive" difficult or impossible for you.
To distance yourself from it and not be swayed into it. Perhaps it's something they've done to you as a baby, perhaps later...I myself have had these symptompts. of it all affecting my personality.
But you'd have to step back and perhaps realize that I do have something to teach you instead of the other way.
  

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Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reply #14 - Jul 11th, 2016 at 8:21pm
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