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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Bump mapping support? (Read 32653 times)
Smirftsch
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Re: Bump mapping support?
Reply #45 - Oct 11th, 2012 at 5:24pm
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No doubt Epic intended to build it in, but indeed it was never done. Problem is, that all lighting and most rendering stuff is done internally yet and not- unlike modern games, in GPU. To implement it is currently not feasible, indeed it would make sense to create an entirely new renderer first which utilizes GPU.
  

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GreatEmerald
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Re: Bump mapping support?
Reply #46 - Oct 11th, 2012 at 6:06pm
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Hmm? I can understand that not being possible in software. But you do have D3D and OGL renderers, and those have bump-map support (D3D6 had a proprietary one and D3D8 had a regular one; OGL has had it since OGL 1.3). So how come you can't use the functionality there?
  
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Smirftsch
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Re: Bump mapping support?
Reply #47 - Oct 12th, 2012 at 6:26am
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oh, it is possible (in theory), still not feasible, not viable in my eyes. It would require a lot of additional work and the result may still not as good as if it would be done via GPU, not mentioning performance here.
  

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GreatEmerald
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Re: Bump mapping support?
Reply #48 - Oct 12th, 2012 at 7:58am
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Good to know. And why is it not feasible? Does the code abstract the D3D/OGL functions too much? And what do you mean about GPU acceleration, doesn't the renderer automatically utilise it when those functions are used?
  
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Re: Bump mapping support?
Reply #49 - Oct 12th, 2012 at 12:14pm
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GreatEmerald wrote on Oct 12th, 2012 at 7:58am:
Good to know. And why is it not feasible?


I wonder if Smirftsch working alone on the rendering code to implement a feature that required entire teams of developpers has something to do with it.
Nah, probably not.
  

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Smirftsch
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Re: Bump mapping support?
Reply #50 - Oct 12th, 2012 at 2:41pm
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GreatEmerald wrote on Oct 12th, 2012 at 7:58am:
Good to know. And why is it not feasible? Does the code abstract the D3D/OGL functions too much? And what do you mean about GPU acceleration, doesn't the renderer automatically utilise it when those functions are used?


Not really. Many things are still done in Engine, especially lighting. To have some bumpmapping effect I'd need to pass over lighting information to the renderer to even realize it. Not even that it would be still slower then and would require even more performance, it would mean to do a lot of things "manually by hand" which otherwise the GPU and some routines would do almost entirely alone.
Lighting should be done nowadays in GPU, its much faster and to realize things like bumpmapping and realtime shadows (really lighting dependent shadows then) would be way easier.
  

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GreatEmerald
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Re: Bump mapping support?
Reply #51 - Oct 12th, 2012 at 2:56pm
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That's interesting. Also explains why Unreal uses a lot of CPU but not a lot of GPU power relatively.
  
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Re: Bump mapping support?
Reply #52 - Oct 12th, 2012 at 3:03pm
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Of course. Games as old as Unreal always packed a large part of their rendering in the engine itself, to be done on CPU. Graphic cards, though not really a novelty by then, were not in everybody's computer, and the software rendering was still an important component. GCs were still expensive, and the most problematic thing was the incompatibility of all the different norms. I remember reading an article explaining that, in the end, the narrowing down of the market to two main competitors (ATI and Nvidia) had the positive effect of forcing two architectures which were then refined to relative stability, while previously everyone made graphic cards, including some people 'who shouldn't have made GC' (dixit the article, I wonder if that was not Carmack talking).

AFAIK, it's only afterwards, in the UT/Q3 generation of games that hardware acceleration became commonplace, leaving more cpu cycles for the AI, physics and so on.

Ah, reminds me of the good old days, playing Q2 and HL insoftware mode.
  

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hogsy
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Re: Bump mapping support?
Reply #53 - Oct 23rd, 2012 at 2:32pm
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Just to clarify bump-mapping / normal-mapping has been in use since 1997, just never very popular due to hardware limitations and such.
  
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Re: Bump mapping support?
Reply #54 - Oct 23rd, 2012 at 7:13pm
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hogsy wrote on Oct 23rd, 2012 at 2:32pm:
Just to clarify bump-mapping / normal-mapping has been in use since 1997, just never very popular due to hardware limitations and such.


What was the first game to use it? Can you please post screenshots?
  
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Re: Bump mapping support?
Reply #55 - Oct 24th, 2012 at 11:50am
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I can't right now but the first one that comes to mind is the game Jurassic Park Trespasser.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic_Park:_Trespasser#Development

There were a few others around the time that took advantage of the feature that certain cards offered almost exclusively but again the reason people are unaware of most of these is mainly because the feature was only offered with very specific cards at the time. It has to be noted however contrary to popular belief that techniques such as bump-mapping don't need to be supported by the graphics card to be achived on there as they can in-fact be handled on the CPU instead (there was a cancelled game from around 1999 that was already using shadow-mapping techniques for shadowing a dynamicly lit environment which could be achieved on cards such as the 3dfx Voodoo 3  Cool).

So yeah such techniques have been used in quite a few games in the past but as very little hardware supported such features at the time (and managing such effects on the CPU was very difficult and time consuming) it certainly wasn't too popular and only caught on when there started to be new standards set in place and the hardware support on the graphics card was there to do it.
  
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