Can you give me a...

[Hellkeeper]

I have had many friends who you could call pirates, in fact I knew some who never bought a game. But they were not evil people...they just had own philosophy or weren't aware of bullshit laws. Get it? Thx.

90% of the people I know do the same. I don't see them as "filthy pirates". I don't care, I'm not constantly after them reminding them how wrong and bad and not nice and mean they are : they are not and anyway, that's not my problem. But there's a gap between doing it and actively supporting it (and promoting it as a "philosophy" :p).

As for bullshit laws, I'm surrounded by them just as much as you. Yet, ignorance of a law has never been an excuse.

About gifted and lended CDs, yeah, everyone does that (and not just with CDs), but there's a boundarie between lending some stuff here and there and actively search for someone to lend you the CD, copy it and never buy anything.

In fact I can say that the pirates are promoting the game and making it more popular. Why do you think the games in the old days were so common and popular? Guess....doesn't take a genius.

Games were more popular in the old days because the market was not as flooded as today with horrible insipid useless and generally bad games, because they were the new thing in town all the cool guys wanted to have and because people like id software propagated their software themselves as shareware. Also, the fact that a game was not considered a failure if it failed to raise more than 190 gazillions dollars (and two cents).
Of course, pirating software and spreading the stuff is a way to make it accessible to people and all. Yet if I had to sell X copies of my game in order to keep my job (otherwise the editor just terminates the studio), I'd be pretty pissed to see everyone playing it and still have to search for something else

[GreatEmerald]

But....I didn't know it was wrong to share burned CDs or anything like that, or to "pirate" games as well. I have never sold any pirated game for money, but I have sometimes received burned copies of music and games CDs as a gift. Yeah you hear right, as a gift. And it is still sometimes a common practice.

Indeed, same situation here (of course, our countries are similar and close to each other ). I was really impressed when I got an original CD of Heroes of Might and Magic III as a gift for one of my birthdays, as all other times every CD I got as a present was not original That version, however, was in Russian and I had to ask my mom to translate a lot of the text there, and later I actually learned to play it without even understanding a word, mostly by looking at the first or last word, making associations and seeing what happens if I click on one or other button And that's what introduced me to the Might and Magic series, which is one of my favourites right now.

[Hellkeeper]

It would have been even better if it had introduced you to russian

[GreatEmerald]

To be honest I don't really like Russian language, for one it uses strange symbols, it sounds "violent" and it's the language that people who have been occupied our country for a few decades used... Russians themselves are mostly good people, though, but very unlucky with their country leaders it seems :\
But this has gone way off topic.

[Leo T_C_K]

To be honest I don't really like Russian language, for one it uses strange symbols, it sounds "violent" and it's the language that people who have been occupied our country for a few decades used... Russians themselves are mostly good people, though, but very unlucky with their country leaders it seems :\
But this has gone way off topic.

Even german language sounds voilent if you think about it. And they occupied countries too back then.
Is that a coincidence?

[GreatEmerald]

Indeed, makes you wonder... Then again, Italian is the farthest you can get from that, I think, yet the Roman Empire tended to do the same

[Leo T_C_K]

But that's more far from past and the language wasn't the same I believe.

[Hellkeeper]

When you take the time to listen to it, English is also quite barbaric. It's an almost inarticulated stream of sounds with half-formed consouns :s

[[§Ŕ] ŤhěxĐâŕkśîđěŕ]

[ch1052][ch1086][ch1075][ch1083][ch1086] [ch1073][ch1080] [ch1089][ch1077] [ch1079][ch1072] [ch1089][ch1088][ch1087][ch1089][ch1082][ch1080] [ch1080][ch1089][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1088][ch1077][ch1115], [ch1080][ch1089][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1115][ch1080][ch1088][ch1080][ch1083][ch1080][ch1094][ch1091] [ch1082][ch1086][ch1088][ch1080][ch1089][ch1090][ch1080], [ch1087][ch1072] [ch1089][ch1074][ch1077][ch1112][ch1077][ch1076][ch1085][ch1086] [ch1112][ch1072] [ch1088][ch1072][ch1079][ch1091][ch1084][ch1080][ch1112][ch1077][ch1084] [ch1089][ch1088][ch1087][ch1089][ch1082][ch1080] [ch1080] [ch1079][ch1085][ch1072][ch1084] [ch1115][ch1080][ch1088][ch1080][ch1083][ch1080][ch1094][ch1091]...

[Marzanna]

Is it Serbian?
Quite similar to my language, but with some old words and some symbols we don't use.

[[§Ŕ] ŤhěxĐâŕkśîđěŕ]

Is it Serbian?
Quite similar to my language, but with some old words and some symbols we don't use.

Actually it's Croatian.
But with Cyrillic letters, and yeah it's similar to Serbian.

[WARP-10]

Thanks for not banning this thread since the subject matter is worthy of intelligent discussion.

To be honest with you guys, in all my years of computing I haven't used an illegal copy of software. Some people may not believe that but that is understandable if during the course of their years of computing hot copies of software is common among their circle of people since they would find it hard to grasp the concept of someone not doing it. I have a lot of homemade CD's that contain about 10 years worth of freeware but that is legal.

After reading all this I was curious about something.

I don't think buying and using second hand games is pirating or a violation of ethics or laws.

For one, the one who sold the game is responsible to remove the software from their computer. If not then they are the one boot legging a copy of the game because they do not have a factory issue copy of the game CD to support their installation of the game. Even a legal back up copy is not satisfactory to support the possession of the installation.

Many EULA's include the statement that if you sell the original CD you have to remove the software from your computer.

He who possesses the factory CD is the one who has the legal installation. Even if you stepped on your CD and it's in pieces you should put it in the case and put it on the shelf since that is still proof.

There are though two things that I have never been able to figure out.

1. How do those who offer freeware and shareware get away with not allowing anyone to download the software if they are not a paid member of their little club. And, why do so many freeware producers purposely put their freeware behind such paid services.

2. How do game rental interests get away with what they do. Do they only rent to those who already own a license key or have they bought a zillion license keys from the software producer and supply it with the rental.

My second hand games that I use don't require license keys or registration and if the person that I got the factory CD from did not remove the software from their computer, well that is THEIR problem and not mine because only I can back up my installation by demonstrating a legally obtained factory CD.

I also have and collect a lot of second hand games that require license keys and registration but those are just to resell to people who already have those things but their CD got broken or whatever since I don't go out of my way to obtain legal or illegal license keys.

There are far to many games out there that don't involve breaking the bank to have gaming fun. Even at that, if you just wait a few months you can get expensive games out of the bargain bin.

As far as license keys go, you can go without actually possessing a CD copy as long as you can demonstrate that you own a license key. I have a legal license key for Windows Millennium Edition, XP Home and XP Pro so as long as I possess that I don't need a factory CD and I can install those operating systems on my computer from any factory issue Windows CD. With that owning the key is all you need.

The only time I use second hand software that requires a license key is if the license key comes packed with the game or is included with the documentation. Again, the one I got it from is legally obligated to remove the software from their computer.

It is rarely prosecuted since they mostly go after bootleg CD producers but if you get caught with bootleg software on your computer you can do years in prison IF the prosecutor wishes to push it. It is even riskier in small localities compared to the big city since the local prosecutor will have no high profile things to deal with and could use you to boost their career as a big time software pirate buster like getting caught with a joint in the big city is no big deal but in a small town they will put you away for a couple of months since it makes them look like big time drug war enforcers.

In my opinion it isn't worth the risk. I would go out and cut the grass or play some free MMORPG before I did that. Plus if someone knows that you have that on your computer and then decides that they don't like you anymore they can make a world of trouble for you.

[KillerSkaarj]

Oh, I've also downloaded Rune, but I recently found out that I can get it off of Ebay for..... wait for it.... $2.59. I deleted the game instantly. I might buy it and its sequel, once I get the money (it won't be that hard).

[[§Ŕ] ŤhěxĐâŕkśîđěŕ]

How do those who offer freeware and shareware get away with not allowing anyone to download the software if they are not a paid member of their little club. And, why do so many freeware producers purposely put their freeware behind such paid services.

Freeware [ch8800] open source
Shit like that doesn't happen with open source software.

imo massively profiting from software is just greedy. It's okay to make a living, but look at Microsoft for example...

[Hellkeeper]

imo massively profiting from software is just greedy. It's okay to make a living, but look at Microsoft for example...

It could be said of any activity that makes money (read : any activity, period). Yeah, making large profit is greedy, but it's okay to make a living out of it. Still the whole purpose of the whole economy of the entire world is to make profits, not to make a living in some reasonable limits. Moreover, making huge profits doesn't necessarily means that you have to sell at mindblowingly high prices. It may very well be that you're making a great software that sells millions of copies (think photoshop for example : how much millions do they make out of it, yet it has competitors).

If companies just wanted to make a living out of their products and not profits, aparts from us living in a world full of flying laser-shooting unicorns of love, we would be living in a socialist economy, which is precisely the opposite of what existe today

[[§Ŕ] ŤhěxĐâŕkśîđěŕ]

Exactly what I'm saying. The world has gone to hell...

[DieHard SCWS]

A bit late, but now its my time to throw my 2 cents.

Personally i like to buy everything(the real deal) in the store, Ebay, Amazon or from whatever source. And the reason is simple, i like to collect things, and i want to have everything in retail boxes or even as collectables. And i admit it costs me a small fortune, while at the same time, i am not rich. But due to my illnesses, i cannot go out to bars or cafes, let alone go on vacation. So basically this replaces all that.


I do download illigal software, and games. But for games it pretty much only aplies to games you cannot get anymore. And when possible, those illigal copies are replaced by the legal versions i buy from Ebay or amazon.


Software in general, its simple, i dont have the money to buy them, if i had, i would. And that is regardless what they cost. And i dont concider that stealing at all, because if i would have the money, i would have bought them. And since i dont have the money but still have the sofware, the creators dont loose money on it. So its either i cant buy it and i dont have it, or i choose, i cant buy but still download it. It would only be a loss to that company if i have the money and download it illigally. So if i dont have the money for it, than it ends there. Its simply not a loss for a company...........


And i am aware, though i am at the lowest money scale in my country and concidered poor, other people in other countries likelly have alot less money to spend. And i think people have to be very carefull, if they say buy you can get it for little money on the net. That is easy said, if you come from a super rich country like the US, Germany, The Netherlands, Denmark, etc. And if i cant pay for it, people in poor countries will even have more problems in buying legal stuff. So i think money is an issue here, if you dont have the money to begin with to buy a sofware product, than it never can be a loss to the creator. Obviously this only applies to sofware, movies, music etc that only consists of 0 and 1


In my country its as most developed countries a big issue and you are not allowed to use illigal downloads. But here it is, watch this picture i came across on the net a while ago:




And what is shown there, is very true. In my country (The Netherlands or Holland if you wish so) you get similar warnings and trailers like above. I do own all shows from Star Trek, and i have them all on DVD bought in the shop. Each DVD has 4 movies, and each season has 9 DVD's while there are 7 seasons per show. All shows combined there are 1008 episodes.


I got a cheap DVD player that cant remember s h i t, so each time if i want to watch an episode i go through the picture you see above, and for Star Trek this is 6 minutes till i can watch the episode. 1008 x 6 minutes is 6048 minutes : 60 is friggen 100 hours if i want to watch all shows. Have you any idea how fu**ed up that is !!!! I have to watch friggen 100 hours of that c r a p to be able to see all the episodes. And believe me, i payed alot of money for that.


I went to a friend of mine who has them all illigally, he trows in the DVD, and within 4 seconds we could watch the episode we wanted to see........... Needless to say, i was like WTF, why the hell do i pay all that money for...........


I also have all the Stargate seasons, 10 seasons to be exact. When i bought season 8 i got follow for my money. Again 4 episodes per DVD and the box contains 7 DVD's so 28 episodes. First i get a commercial to buy the Stargate boxsets. Well........ If you buy number 8, you pretty much can asume you already bough 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, So why the fu** go tell that, than i got a commercial to go watch the movie, than i got a commercial to go buy the spin off Stargate Atlantis, than i got a commercial to buy the game Stargate, than i got a warning to not illigally copy the DVD. Why the fu** bother goddamn, IT IS LEGAL !!! Why are you friggen telling me not to buy an illigal copy on a legal copy ?????????? It IS a legal copy you fruitcake....


Time spend, and i am NOT lying: 28 friggen minutes.............


To watch the entire box i had to watch that crap for 13 hours. And than you really wonder why people download movies from the net. Its only because i am a total retard that likes retail stuff, but otherwise why bother for gods sake....................


They also promote, you get good quallity DVD's that last forever. Well did i mention i cannot run 25% from my legal copies on my DVD player. When you ask by the DVD shop whats that about, you only get to hear, go fuck off, we already have your money, its a LEGAL DVD, so it works, byeeeeeeeeee


And thats what you go through when you legally buy movies. And frankly, i dont care shit if people burn them at home, i really, really dont care..........


Music is fine, you throw in your CD and it plays. The only problem, they dont sell CD players anymore, so that kinda is a handycap as well   . Nowadays you only can throw em in a DVD player which takes ages and ages to load and you need a TV to operate your CD's. So there too, why would anyone nowadays wanna but a legal music CD while there are not even machines anymore to run them on.


And keep in mind that companies like Sony bring out the bigger bulk of music CD's but refuse to make the CD players anymore. Why the fu** is a company like that complaining that people are downloading music from the net.


Wel Mr. Sony how bout: MAKE FU**ING MACHINES THAT CAN RUN THEM WITHOUT A GODAMN TELLY, HOWS THAT ?????????????


So partially i really agree when people download stuff from the net, and if you really dont have the money, than by all means, go download, i couldnt care less. But if you have the money you should buy it IMHO (movies and music excluded).


And yeah, i can say the same thing about software, half the time they too rip off paying customers. And i have every Unreal and UT you can think off, bought in the store or from the net. My UT2004 (price 60 dollars in a retail tin can box) crumbled in my hands to dust last year because it rotted away completelly..... So much for legal stuff...


UT3 i never played online, as you have to sign up through GameSpy to gain access to the net. I simply wanna play godamn, what the heck. Why do i need to register to go play a stupid game ?


I bought Vista crap, i am not even gonna start telling.......


I make textures, and i would really feel bad if someone would go sell them off for money and i dont get that money, so yeah stealing can be bad, and to a certain extend i can understand companies if people download illigally. But at the same time, there is alot to say about all those companies, as they give sh** about their customers and are only interested in the bucks and nothing more. And another good example is the whole episode of mismatches for Unreal Anthology players.

BTW thanks go to Havok who helped me out with the paths and testing, and Smirftsch for providing his patches

It is soooooooooooo fu**ed up, that I had to create a patch on Epics and Midways behalf. Can it get more rediculous than that. And when you think of it, it might well be the case they only can sell it on Valve and GOG because i made the damn patch.



So Valve, GOG, EPIC, Midway, WHERES MY FU**ING MONEY ?????



Theres alot to say about legal and illigal stuff, People who have the money should certainly not download illigally. And people that dont have the money, you really got my blessings. And the companies, they should care less about money, and more about their own customers.
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[[§Ŕ] ŤhěxĐâŕkśîđěŕ]

I agree with the above post completely. From first to last word. Exactly what I wanted to say.

[Buster]

WoW Diehard. I haven't seen you drop that many F-bombs before. It's nice to see. LoL. I do agree with you !!

[GreatEmerald]

Software in general, its simple, i dont have the money to buy them, if i had, i would. And that is regardless what they cost. And i dont concider that stealing at all, because if i would have the money, i would have bought them. And since i dont have the money but still have the sofware, the creators dont loose money on it. So its either i cant buy it and i dont have it, or i choose, i cant buy but still download it. It would only be a loss to that company if i have the money and download it illigally. So if i dont have the money for it, than it ends there. Its simply not a loss for a company..........

That's exactly Stardock's opinion on this, too. They don't put any DRM in their games and they don't complain about piracy because pirates are not their customers. They wouldn't buy the game either way. And those who buy the game are more comfortable with buying a game that doesn't have all that annoying DRM to begin with. Stardock also focuses on creating games for people who buy their games rather than what most users want, although I'm not sure how they distinguish that.

Thinking about it, it would be a really nice idea to have no DRM and simply include extras with retail CDs/DVDs/DLCs, including product registration that would allow customers to vote or even access the official forums, like Invision does. I mean, how many people register their products online these days, anyway? The most you get from that is usually a newsletter that is either dead already or spams your e-mail box... And registration only for retail customers = no spam and per-account bans, all of which makes forums a lot nicer place.