OldUnreal (Engine)

But even install check like 227 is kinda wrong, it should be separate but having some heck switch, I don't like the installer idea, or that when it checks for the password it should do some additional check, that way, but not installers and that is, if they give out permission, otherwise you are busted.

Look Shiv, I said especially to you, because I doubt you have a quality floppy disk drive and others doubt it as well, plus the floppy disc is full of bad sector probably by now. Plus you often do a certain mistakes around, no offense and you still keep on your views even if proven wrong and how many times I had to correct you, remember that. And he could obtain that drive or extract the files from other computer, why sending them at mail? Where do you live exactly? You live in Canada? If not, it is even more crazy dammit. I should keep my mouths shut? No boy, you should and because of the barely legal actions you are taking and distribution of copyrighted things, DE is not happy at all about this and they said nobody has right to release these things without their knowledge, I already contacted them with someone.

As for the music, yeah but they have different file sizes and are more complete, you should upload those files, they are not the same exactly. And most importantly the UMX will work without need to extract them first...

Holy crud, there's been a f*ckload of new Unreal events going on this year. Patch 227f, Unreal PSX levels, Turboman extracted and released the old Automag mesh, and now Unreal ALPHA!?

And I have GOT to download that Unreal II Beta. I can't wait!!

2009 is the International Year of Astronomy, but now I declare it also the International Year of Unreal!

But even install check like 227 is kinda wrong, it should be separate but having some heck switch, I don't like the installer idea, or that when it checks for the password it should do some additional check, that way, but not installers and that is, if they give out permission, otherwise you are busted.

Why is the Installation check wrong for 227? As long as it checks for an installed version to prevent piracy, I don't see what is wrong.

Look Shiv, I said especially to you, because I doubt you have a quality floppy disk drive and others doubt it as well, plus the floppy disc is full of bad sector probably by now. And he could obtain that drive or extract the files from other computer, why sending them at mail?

I'd like to know exactly why you doubt SHivaxi's floppy drive, and I would like to know who else doubts him too. You have no reason to doubt it (Unless it cost about £2 from a corner hardware shop) Since this person is releasing them, we can assume they have used the floppys in the past and if they didn't work, the person would have told us already. The person is also sending them becuase he does not have a floppy drive of his own.

Where do you live exactly? You live in Canada? If not, it is even more crazy dammit.

The hell?

I should keep my mouths shut? No boy, you should and because of the barely legal actions you are taking and distribution of copyrighted things, DE is not happy at all about this and they said nobody has right to release these things without their knowledge, I already contacted them with someone.

Leo, don't start throwing abuse around, it doesn't solve anything. It is fully legal to release these betas since the license on Unreal expired last year. The only non-legal thing would be to distribute them to people who do not own the full game themselves, that's why an installer must be created that checks for an installation of Unreal first. Could you also provide some proof (Screnshots, E-Mail) of you contacting Digital Extremes? It's not that I don't believe you, I'd just like to know what they think. As soon as the distribution becomes 100% legal, there wil be nothing that DE or anyone can do to Oldunreal, regardless of how they feel about the matter.

Back on topic, I hope that we don't have to wait until 2010 for these, I will probably have died of anticipation by then. He moves to his new house on the 4th of just (Next Saturday?), so I will ask him about a week after that. (Give him some time to settle in and such)

It is crazy to send such sensitive media over a long travels through mail.....
This is the response:

This is news to me. He actually doesn't have any rights to release betas or
any other kind of work from any of our software without our written
permission. We own it outright in perpetuity as stated in all of our
employment and outsourcing contracts.

Leo, if you have any other thoughts about how to make it protected from piracy, please tell us and we'll consider them. If not, well, there's no use talking about that. And please don't start flame wars in this thread!

Seriously Leo, why did you have to go and contact DE about this? You are making things worse...

Seriously Leo, why did you have to go and contact DE about this? You are making things worse...

Because I told him to. This all sounded too good to be true. I still don't believe any of it. GE appearantly
believes in his cause, but he might have no legal standing. One might say I'm doing you a service by bursting the bubble before anyone gets hurt.

I don't see how this can be illegal. Think about it: it's already 10 years after the release of Unreal. The whole source code of DooM was published only 4 years after DooM's release! And this is not even the source code, they are harmless betas, which will even be protected from unauthorised use.
I'm sure we'll get official permission once we get to contact them. I don't see any harm at all - this might attract more people, which means more Unreal Anthology sales and more money to them.

I don't see how this can be illegal. Think about it: it's already 10 years after the release of Unreal. The whole source code of DooM was published only 4 years after DooM's release!

That wasn't just done by a former employee. Carmack released it after having someone clean it up and undoubtably consulting w/ their (read: ID Software's) laywer. They even created a license for the initial release, the DOOM Source Code license, before re-releasing it under the GPL a year later.

And this is not even the source code, they are harmless betas, which will even be protected from unauthorised use.

Protected... from unauthorised use? *clickety-clickety translator* CDPath=/data/games/Install/Unreal.iso/? Or should we resort to cracks? No-one is gonna fall for that; and what about content that is used elsewhere commercially? That can harm, and quite easily.

I'm sure we'll get official permission once we get to contact them. I don't see any harm at all - this might attract more people, which means more Unreal Anthology sales and more money to them.

Given DE's response, how can you be so sure? Besides, your previous posts implied that you already got permission, that is was a done deal. Appearantly, there's still this hurdle to take.

Protected... from unauthorised use? *clickety-clickety translator* CDPath=/data/games/Install/Unreal.iso/? Or should we resort to cracks? No-one is gonna fall for that; and what about content that is used elsewhere commercially? That can harm, and quite easily.

Given DE's response, how can you be so sure? Besides, your previous posts implied that you already got permission, that is was a done deal. Appearantly, there's still this hurdle to take.

If you're talking in that sense, then releasing Unreal in the first place was a harmful mistake. Those who have pirated copies can resell them anywhere even now. Betas are not harmful at all.

The post implied nothing - it just reveals the contents of the patch. Sure, there is a possibility that permission won't be given, but like I've said, I don't see how this is harmful. And I don't really take that DE response seriously - we don't have any visual proof of questions that were asked nor that the reply is real.

I fully agree with GreatEmerald. The release of DOOM's Source allowed modders to create amazing mods because of the resources available to them (the source code). The betas are harmless and there is nothing that can ever be done to prevent piracy. We can only release these betas in the hope that people who are true fans of the game, will buy the game, and not download it.

I always wondered about all the unused content during it's 4 year development phase. Now we have the opportunity to see these amazing features. As someone who is especially interested in the beta content, I could not contain my excitement when I heard about all the beta releases. Now that the other tech demo (Not the '95 one), the first ever proto (The one on the floppys) and the many other betas, alphas, protos and pre-releases are going to be released, I find it hard to believe why anyone would be willing to oppose this.

Protected... from unauthorised use? *clickety-clickety translator* CDPath=/data/games/Install/Unreal.iso/? Or should we resort to cracks? No-one is gonna fall for that; and what about content that is used elsewhere commercially? That can harm, and quite easily.

Given DE's response, how can you be so sure? Besides, your previous posts implied that you already got permission, that is was a done deal. Appearantly, there's still this hurdle to take.

If you're talking in that sense, then releasing Unreal in the first place was a harmful mistake. Those who have pirated copies can resell them anywhere even now. Betas are not harmful at all.

The post implied nothing - it just reveals the contents of the patch. Sure, there is a possibility that permission won't be given, but like I've said, I don't see how this is harmful.

You're comitting the sin of logic. DE is a commercial venture, not an idealistic one. The rules of... 'business' seem to apply.

And I don't really take that DE response seriously - we don't have any visual proof of questions that were asked nor that the reply is real.

I'll ask Leo_TCK to up the entire msg.

Note that I'll be unavailable for a few hours due to RL commitments -- can we postpone the flame war until then? Thanks :)

EDIT: fix quote tags

I fully agree with GreatEmerald. The release of DOOM's Source allowed modders to create amazing mods because of the resources available to them (the source code). The betas are harmless and there is nothing that can ever be done to prevent piracy.

Except not releasing them in the first place. Besides, early legal action can have quite a chilling effect -- something from which a piece may never fully recover.

We can only release these betas in the hope that people who are true fans of the game, will buy the game, and not download it.

'True fans' don't always have the money, the resources, and/or the right people around them to buy the game. Besides, the last time a real version was sold... when was it? 4-6 years ago?

I always wondered about all the unused content during it's 4 year development phase. Now we have the opportunity to see these amazing features.

Amazing? I'm sure some think of SuSe as amazing. I usually call those people 'amateurs'.

Don't take me wrong -- I worship DooM. I just don't generally worship it's source ports.

As someone who is especially interested in the beta content, I could not contain my excitement when I heard about all the beta releases.

*That's* the problem I see here. You can't contain your excitement at the thought, and go take it for granted. It's short-sightedness, but I'm not sure you're self-concious enough for others to be able to blame you for it.

Now that the other tech demo (Not the '95 one), the first ever proto (The one on the floppys) and the many other betas, alphas, protos and pre-releases are going to be released, I find it hard to believe why anyone would be willing to oppose this.

Before I believe *that*, I'd like to see the actual release happen, and a pleased-to-neutral reply from DE and Epic.

You want a crusty old 6502 hacker to read those floppies (if he doesn't freak out on IBM PCs that is :^)

EDIT: Now I'm really gone -- cya in a few hours :)

Protected... from unauthorised use? *clickety-clickety translator* CDPath=/data/games/Install/Unreal.iso/? Or should we resort to cracks? No-one is gonna fall for that; and what about content that is used elsewhere commercially? That can harm, and quite easily.

Given DE's response, how can you be so sure? Besides, your previous posts implied that you already got permission, that is was a done deal. Appearantly, there's still this hurdle to take.

If you're talking in that sense, then releasing Unreal in the first place was a harmful mistake. Those who have pirated copies can resell them anywhere even now. Betas are not harmful at all.

The post implied nothing - it just reveals the contents of the patch. Sure, there is a possibility that permission won't be given, but like I've said, I don't see how this is harmful. And I don't really take that DE response seriously - we don't have any visual proof of questions that were asked nor that the reply is real.

I hate posting others emails, but ok, here is your proof:

As I thought, the mail doesn't contain any details. I'm pretty sure DE simply forgot about the deal they made - after all, it's been 10 years! The original contract should remind them about that. They can't break contracts like that, too.

And there isn't anything breaking the laws of business, as zeur said. Betas attract people, they buy Anthology, DE and Epic get money. And really, anyone who pirates games can not ever be true fans, because buying the game itself is showing your loyalty in the first place.

And overall why would you oppose this? You what, don't want to see the betas or what? Really, this isn't harmful at all, and makes everyone happy. I don't see much to discuss about here. If we get permission, that's good. If not, we'll attempt again; either way, we'll keep you informed about that. There will be no releases if there is no official permission, you can be sure.

I want to see them, but if the obtaining includes not gaining permission it is a problem (and risc for many people to suffer conequences) and I was actually excited until I started diving into details and realizing that who is releasing the betas is not anyone from develeoper team (besides I can see it was violated here already by sending the floppy disks to shivaxi which is probably the most stupid move ever and that was without any permission and Shivaxi talks about it openly here, it is not my fault if they find about all the stuff that is going on here).

Etc....

As I thought, the mail doesn't contain any details. I'm pretty sure DE simply forgot about the deal they made - after all, it's been 10 years! The original contract should remind them about that. They can't break contracts like that, too.

And there isn't anything breaking the laws of business, as zeur said. Betas attract people, they buy Anthology, DE and Epic get money. And really, anyone who pirates games can not ever be true fans, because buying the game itself is showing your loyalty in the first place.

And overall why would you oppose this? You what, don't want to see the betas or what? Really, this isn't harmful at all, and makes everyone happy. I don't see much to discuss about here. If we get permission, that's good. If not, we'll attempt again; either way, we'll keep you informed about that. There will be no releases if there is no official permission, you can be sure.

Agreed fully. Didn't Smirf have to ask multiple times to get the source for Unreal? He was dedicated enough and cared enough not to give up right away. Epic trusted him enough not to give it to anyone else, and he has abided by that promise even to this day. Thanks to the source release, Unreal has had many new updates, and I believe that the release of these betas will bring much new content to Unreal. Not only that, but knowing more about the history of the game is something I am looking forward to. (New cinematics, maps, story and such..)

I want to see them, but if the obtaining includes not gaining permission it is a problem (and risc for many people to suffer conequences) and I was actually excited until I started diving into details and realizing that who is releasing the betas is not anyone from develeoper team (besides I can see it was violated here already by sending the floppy disks to shivaxi which is probably the most stupid move ever and that was without any permission and Shivaxi talks about it openly here, it is not my fault if they find about all the stuff that is going on here).

Etc....

Trust us Leo, I'm sure that this person with the betas has already investigated all the legal issues and would not have posted here at all if he knew he would not have permission.

Yes, I again assure you that without any confirmation there will be no data released, so there is nothing to worry about!

Wow where did Zeurkous come from? Haven't seen him in years.

And Leo...don't you dare call me "boy". I'm probably twice your age. As I said before, you know nothing about me, so you should have no reason to doubt me. I have been working with computers at the age of 3...and my father has been building them from scratch most of his life. This is why I even have a 5 1/2 " floppy disc drive in the first place. The normal 3 1/2 " Floppy's that the other alhpas are on, I believe "the guy" has drives for those himself. But the 5 1/2 " ones are so incredibly rare that he does not own nor know anyone in his local area who does. Do you really think he would be mailing this to me if he could do it locally?

As for where I live, I live in New York, which is close to Canada anyway, so the trip isn't all that far. "the guy" tells me that he is only 6-8 hours from New York by car, as he lives close to the border of Canada. Mailing isn't so unreliable though as you make it seem, so I'm really not sure what your problem is or why you seem to NOT want these to get released...contacting DE and all...

227 requires checks to make sure your install of unreal is even valid, otherwise you're getting essentially a free copy of the engine.

Also, a simple check to make sure you actually own Unreal vs UT or U2 is extremely easy. and it will work for any version of unreal/ut/u2 {unless u2 is different, but I dont think they'd break convention there..}

Also 2 things : Leo probably just ruined this for us, and it is stupid to talk about actually getting them through mail.

He just said he did not mail you anything (I contacted him now), so stop providing fake informations.  He said he will mail that to you after he's got permissions.

And you twice as older than me? You are 17, I am like three years older.
Not only that, but you act also extremely pathetic, sorry.
EDIT: Besides you are replying to an old post, I want to stop this stuff now, if casey is going crazy over it.

ffs. can someone remove all this fucking slander? god damn.

Someone's out there busting their balls to give us some really cool stuff and you two are arguing? And it's extremely possible one of you just ruined it altogether? Be quiet. PLEASE.

As I thought, the mail doesn't contain any details. I'm pretty sure DE simply forgot about the deal they made - after all, it's been 10 years! The original contract should remind them about that. They can't break contracts like that, too.

'Simply forgot?' Leo_TCK told me this 'Meridith Braun' is DE's head of PR. I somehow have
trouble believing that she didn't check with her superiors or was otherwise left uninformed.

And there isn't anything breaking the laws of business, as zeur said.

I was not talking about laws. I was talking about practices.

Betas attract people, they buy Anthology, DE and Epic get money.

You're confusing cause and effect. Betas attract people who already have innate bonds with the release version. Hence, no more money is to be directly made out of them.

And really, anyone who pirates games can not ever be true fans, because buying the game itself is showing your loyalty in the first place.

We're not all that capitalist :X [even though I bought the game, twice in diff versions] If DE wants me to send them my appreciation, I'll immediately fire up my text editor and sendmail interface. However, them being a capitalistic enterprise, I doubt they'd be solely happy with it. Thus, DE and I would seem to disagree on the value of a purchase. I consider their position valid, but methinks mine makes more sense.

And overall why would you oppose this?

Oppose what? I wanted clarity, and for now I would seem to have got it. That's all I bargained for.

You what, don't want to see the betas or what?

Sure I do! Why?

Really, this isn't harmful at all, and makes everyone happy.

I'll leave it to all the parties individually to determine if they perceive any damage done to anyone and/or anything.

I don't see much to discuss about here. If we get permission, that's good. If not, we'll attempt again; either way, we'll keep you informed about that. There will be no releases if there is no official permission, you can be sure.

Then we have nothing to fear, have we? Good luck -- to us all.

{snippage}

Agreed fully. Didn't Smirf have to ask multiple times to get the source for Unreal? He was dedicated enough and cared enough not to give up right away. Epic trusted him enough not to give it to anyone else, and he has abided by that promise even to this day.

Too bad he's making a mess of his '227' (megalomania, some would call that) patches. I don't mind his efforts -- I mind that he is, in my view, not qualified to undertake many of them.

Thanks to the source release,

The source *was not released*. It was licensed to Smirftsch. Note the diff.

Unreal has had many new updates, and I believe that the release of these betas will bring much new content to Unreal.

90% of everything is crap.
--Sturgeon's Law

Nothing guarantees that the other 10% isn't crap, too.
--spaf

Swiftly applies to Unreal.

Not only that, but knowing more about the history of the game is something I am looking forward to. (New cinematics, maps, story and such..)

That is the one thing on which I'm fully with you. However, I don't seen a point in delusion nor dishonesty (or both!) in the process.

EDIT: attempt to work around baroque quote tags malfunction