Unreal Better models

[g3rsiu]

Hey all,

Maybe a silly question for most of you but, why isn't there a remodel project for Unreal ?

Polycount restrictions ?

I agree it doesn't impact gameplay in general, but should be easy (or at least this noob thinks so) to improve on already existing models. (compared to other remodeling from scratch projects aka 2d to 3d conversions of isometric fps)

I'm sure there are some facts i don't know but i could not help but ask anyway since i think Unreal is the most imersive FPS i have ever played and it never got the sequel it really deserved.

Thank you for reading and responding

[Shivaxi]

I doubt the sources for the meshes are even existing anymore...

[g3rsiu]

Youtube is your friend.

Just saw that there is a Unreal 1 mod for UT2k4 - gonna check it out

Oddly there is nothing "said" about needing files from the original game.

http://www.utzone.de/include.php?path=c ... entid=6068

I'm not into game "coding" so i cant really judge well that "converting" aspect.

Cheers.

[Smirftsch]

uhm, I doubt that 2k4 can have the "real" Unreal feeling.

For the original models, thats no problem at all. I have all meshes of the models. Also 227 is having an enhanced skeletal system thanks to dots, he imported even a 2k4 model for testing
Thing is, to have such a project, we need someone who does it?

[g3rsiu]

Well that should be good news in a way - if you can import a model from 2k4 it means that for a 2k4 modeler should be easy. (oldunreal mobs are present in the mod so that's always a good place to start if u ask me but i know nothing of coding or the way unreal works - maybe someone with more experience should download the mod files and take a closer look. )

Will check out the mod later and see if there's any real model quality gain compared to old unreal ones and maybe post  some feedback on that.

Yes i tend to agree - u cant compare a mod to the old unreal look and feel - that's why the question stands - can we have better models with the old engine.

Cheers.

[Turboman.]

Shivaxi got it about right, at the moment it is REALLY difficult to remodel stuff for unreal because the model sources are pretty much missing (unless smirftsch is hiding something for us or dave carter shows up with his work ).

On a modelling aspect the biggest problem with unreal is that the original models cannot be simply modified, unlike games like half life, quake3, thief/system shock where a remodelling project simply means slapping a new model onto an existing skeleton, in unreal this isn't the case because of the frame/vertex based animation format.
So any person attempting a modelling project has to redraw the creatures frame-by-frame, which is a really annoyingly tiresome process.

I've got a skaarjwarrior skeleton which i've attempted to recreate, its completed for most part (about 500 frames of animation), unfortunately i don't have time or the motivation to finish it.
Its so much easier to just obtain the source models and modify those.

And apparantly on UnrealSP.org there is someone who remodelled a high definition brute, might be interesting to ask him

[Smirftsch]

well, I have the complete sources, so of course I have the models also. Not sure however if I would be allowed to simply offer them for download. Unfortunately Epic doesn't answer any of my mails anymore, so I can't ask about that. Seems finally they decided to completely abandon me/us/Oldunreal.

In theory it should be allowed to offer the models for download since its possible to extract them out of the game too (well, I know with limitations and quality loss etc., but still IT IS POSSIBLE and regarding their official rules and license it should be allowed then).
In any case, they are not lost. Just not sure where this all leads to.

[g3rsiu]

Well the its good to know that there is or at least will be a way in the future -  if someone can still look up that info posted earlier with importing ut2k4 models maybe there is a way with that and the unreal mod for ut2k4.

thinking about what they did for that mod some questions pop

Is importing old models form unreal to ut2k4 seamless ?

Is exporting ut2k4 models to old unreal any easier than creating from scratch ?

Should we worry about the polycount if it were to actually happen ?


didnt end up installing  and testing the model quality but if what was said earlier is true (that u can import a  ut2k4 models thanks to changes in  227f) there might be a "way"

sooner or later i'm sure the remodel aspect will come into play - just a matter of when and where  i guess

This idea poped to me especially after seeing the awesome job done with the retexture project. Unreal really deserves it.

Thnx for the replies so far guys. Tho i cant really help with anything in the most practical manner and  making stuff maybe this ideea will spark something and start a remodel project.

thnx for the info Smirftsch - maybe u can dig a little deeper on that agreement you must have made back when epic did provide stuff and replies - all software aspects must be property of epic until released under general public licensing

last edit/question

they provided the full source - but maybe u dont need to put the models up for download - should they be shared with a small or secure group of devs on a remodel project  that wouldnt really be "general public" now would it ? also having this as a base maybe more persons would actually be tempted to undertake the task of remodeling.

[[]KAOS[]Casey]

unreal > ut2k4 should work as far as I know
ut2k4 > u1 works, but currently only 227g supports anim combining. You have to make individual animations like unreal/ut99 style for all versions.

as for polycount, i'd say 2/3rd or half of ut2k4 player models is acceptable, as they offer no slowdown individually on a decent machine, but in groups can take a huge hit.

This really needs more testing for an appropriate polycount though, the unreal engine can render polys on meshes easier than BSP obviously.

Putting up the raw model source is probably not illegal, since there are various tools that can extract them nearly perfectly already, you'd have to release them with a disclaimer stating they can only be used in unreal games made by epic games, but i'm not sure. you'd have to contact epic games. The definite no no is using the base for profit.

[Turboman.]

well, I have the complete sources, so of course I have the models also. Not sure however if I would be allowed to simply offer them for download. Unfortunately Epic doesn't answer any of my mails anymore, so I can't ask about that. Seems finally they decided to completely abandon me/us/Oldunreal.

just curious about the model sources, do you have the source d.3d - a.3d files? or the actual sources with physique or in .3ds or .obj format?

the a.3d-d.3d files are pretty useless, although the latter few are a GOLDMINE for any unreal modeller... and would seriously create a huge boost in modelling capabilties for the game.




I wonder how much of a problem it would be to release the source models, As i mentioned before, dave carter (ex-lead modeller at epic games, worked on all models for unreal), uploaded all the unreal source models onto his site years ago, they were in actual physique /.3ds /.obj format thus allowing people to modify the unreal creatures in any way possible.
unfortunately the site went defunct in the early 2000's, and all his work seems lost.

Archived version of dave carter's site for the interested
http://web.archive.org/web/200012021911 ... amage.com/

[Jâçkrâßßit]

If that guy did it (releasing source models), I don't see why Smirftsch can't do it. I say upload the Lightwave .obj's to the public!

[.:..:]

just curious about the model sources, do you have the source d.3d - a.3d files? or the actual sources with physique or in .3ds or .obj format?

Smirftch dosen't have the source models as far as I know... But it is possible to import d.3d files on MilkShape 3D (but without animations), yet this would allow us to enhance the single framed models like decorations...

[Gizzy]

I attempted to contact Dave Carter a while back regarding those old files, but I received no response

As for UT2004 models, I ported Jugg.ukx with no hassle (Apart from writing the execs)

[g3rsiu]

What jackrabbit said makes a lot of sense - if they were made public before by the author there should be no reason to worry about the legal aspect - question is what source files does Smirftsch have ?

[Smirftsch]

I have the the source d.3d - a.3d files and I assumed those were meant. More than that I MAYBE could get if I'd have some contact to epic. *sigh*

[g3rsiu]

so.. if i got this right - a.3d are animations frames ? that means someone could improve on that easier ?

like the noob that i am idk much stuff bout unrealworks

returning with 2k4 mod info - yes i must say the experience doesn't even come close to the oldunreal feeling - models are straight imports from oldunreal so no sense in looking there and dare i say somehow oldunreal with retexture looks and feels a lot better than that mod.

will need a couple of months to learn how to model and a couple of years to try to improve a model but point me in the right direction should there be a start point with some source models to begin with.


Thnx so far guys.

[Turboman.]

so.. if i got this right - a.3d are animations frames ? that means someone could improve on that easier ?

Its alot more complex then that, the problem is that a.3d files are simply vertex data, a vertex is pretty much a pixel but in 3d space. Its kind of a moving .gif picture but then in 3d.

The actual reference model is much more complicated and really usefull, it contains actual physical attributes of an object or creature, a skeleton, bone, tissue and skin physics behavior, when the model is imported into unreal, snapshots are taken of these models from each position and used in the game.

thus, modifying  animated models as they are now is at least a thousand times more difficult then modifying 2d sprites from an old game as you mentioned before, you're dealing with hundreds/thousands verticles over three dimensions over hundreds of frames, do the maths to figure that out

[g3rsiu]

yes.. with a bit of research i came understand basically what you mean

well in that case we need to stalk dave carter last i saw he was working for ID

still cant believe those models were up for download and no one has a copy somewhere.
:-/

[Turboman.]

yes.. with a bit of research i came understand basically what you mean

well in that case we need to stalk dave carter last i saw he was working for ID

still cant believe those models were up for download and no one has a copy somewhere.
:-/

someone tried to mail him awhile ago with no reply,

although he currently seems to work at microsoft game studios according to mobygames.
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/shee ... Id,170587/

[g3rsiu]

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dave-carter ... 13/4a6/790

maybe someone has a account in that community ? :-?

[Gizzy]

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dave-carter ... 13/4a6/790

maybe someone has a account in that community ? :-?

haha..I made an account there after not getting a reply for a while...turns out you need to pay to upgrade your account to message someone

[[§Ŕ] ŤhěxĐâŕkśîđěŕ]

Pay = hack.

[Jâçkrâßßit]

If no-one else is willing to pay for an account.. I might actually get around to doing it so we can at least get a Yes/No answer from this guy.  I'll wait a week and see what happens.

I'm sure it would be appreciated

[[§Ŕ] ŤhěxĐâŕkśîđěŕ]

Paying is always appreciated.

[g3rsiu]

Can contribute to that. If you have a paypall account and let us know how much it is needed i'm sure we can throw in a few bucks(or euros).

It should be a community effort

Thnx.