Is it just me (about 227)?

[Smirftsch]

Is it just me or why do I have the impression that in the last time I only get complains instead of reports?
Is it just that me that I expect to much?
I spend so many hours and months of work into this patch that I can't count them anymore, so is it asked to much to get a bugreport with a few details, the when, the what, a way to reproduce? To verify if the same bug maybe happens in other version or even UT too? To spend a few minutes to verify and compare things instead to complain?

Why do I have to read: Its not working I'm switching back to..., why can't I read: This is not working as before or as I expected, why is it that way and can it be changed?
Instead I'm reading: I won't use 227 because it isn't the same feeling (although any 227 feature is optional and gameplay is completely untouched)?
Why do I read: This and that is missing in the wiki instead someone is just adding it? Why do I read the quality is bad but when I ask for help nobody does?
Why am I writing a FAQ if being asked the questions all over again and again ?
Why am I writing release notes (44! Pages as PDF in the patch including FAQ)and being asked again and again what's new in 227?
Is it me? Is it my headache?
Is it my bad mood?
Maybe I'm just to tired, maybe I'm all wrong about that, am I?
What did I miss? I don't get it, it seems.

[GreatEmerald]

The answer is pretty simple, really. We do think that the patch is absolutely awesome - actually, we even recommend it to everyone else who doesn't know about it - but when writing bug reports, not everyone says that the patch is great, even if it still has crashes. People do mean that - but repeating that all over again is simply strange. The actual thing that shows if people are happy with the patch or not are numbers - download numbers. It's rather hard to know how much downloads you get overall, because it's split to a lot of mirrors, but I'm sure there are many people using it. And not everyone registers here just to say that the patch is good and worth it.
The same is everywhere - for example, look at Epic's recent work. They released the Titan Pack and Patch 2 - for free, too. Did they get all that much thanks? Well, look at the forums. They're flooded with things they didn't fix yet, requests and suggestions. Yet download numbers tell a different tale - there are many people using it. Polls also show the interest in the patch and pack. Same with bug reports - there are and always have been people that don't care to read, and post simply a part of what they want to say... And again, both here and at Epic's forums.

Instead I'm reading: I won't use 227 because it isn't the same feeling (although any 227 feature is optional and gameplay is completely untouched)?
Why do I read: This and that is missing in the wiki instead someone is just adding it? Why do I read the quality is bad but when I ask for help nobody does?
Why am I writing a FAQ if being asked the questions all over again and again ?
Why am I writing release notes (44! Pages as PDF in the patch including FAQ)and being asked again and again what's new in 227?
Is it me? Is it my headache?
Is it my bad mood?
Maybe I'm just to tired, maybe I'm all wrong about that, am I?
What did I miss? I don't get it, it seems.

This is rather hard to explain. But it seems that there are people who are overly conservative - they treat enhancements as something that breaks the mood. Surely they won't if the patch has words "Official" printed all over it. But there aren't many people like that. I'd say there are a lot more people who don't try it as they fear that the patch is still not final and might be unstable. That will change once you release the final 227. Then you'll get the most positive reports. That's how it works - we, who use the patch for a long time now, don't see anything that special in it, as we got used to it. Positive reports come in only from those who see the product for the first time.

About the wiki, we are simply not sure if adding things by ourselves would be appropriate or worth it. The wiki here is rather small, and doesn't have a style code like Wikipedia or Liandri Archives. It's just hard to start from something.

About FAQ and release notes - there are two reasons. First is that there aren't enough links. You'd be surprised if you saw how many more people would read them if you, say, added a clearly visible header that is eye-catching in these forums and in the downloads section. The other reason is that people don't really like reading things. For example, how many people actually read Epic's EULA? Nobody cares, even though it's a great thing to do. 44 pages of release notes rather mean "Oh hell, that's a lot to read! Skip!" than "Wow, the patch has so many new things in it! Maybe I should read it all!". Overall, it's not really hard to have all the relevant links kept somewhere and just pasted them when a question like that rises. On BUF, we get tons of questions "My game has speed ups, what should I do?!", and all we do is post a link to the clearly explained answer. Same with "Oh no, my viewports are all white!".

And finally, yes, you do sound a little annoyed. Rest a little, it won't hurt. Working on a project thoroughly does take time and effort, and we won't really be sad if you take a break - after all, a happy developer is a good developer

Hmm, but still, thinking about that, why have Epic chosen only a single person to give the code to? I mean, did they think one is enough for all that work? It seems it is , but that's rather exceptional. Usually groups do such hard work. Look at something as simple as a forum - there is never one admin, there are always more admins, moderators, global moderators, forum moderators etc.

[Hellkeeper]

I back GreatEmerald on pretty much everything he just said. On one hand, peoplew ho express themselves are always the unhappy people. Any developer or politician knows that : if someone is happy with his stuff, he will occasionally say something good about it, whereas people unhappy (and I mean not just "oh, that's not quite what I wanted", but people screaming betrayal) are the ones who warn everyone about what they think. We are supporting you. I personally spread the word as Widely as I can. The thing is, I personally don't have any problems with it, I'm very grateful for the additons in UnrealEd, and I think we all are.

About the wiki then, again I agree fully with GreatEmerald, though I'd be happy to contribute, it's rather hard to decide if something is worth being on it. Someone should define general categories for people to add articles accordingly I think.

[Shivaxi]

Some people are just to lazy and to ignorant Smirf *cough age cough*...don't take it the wrong way. Most if not everyone on this forum absolutly adores the 227 patch as much as I do. Just start ignoring those kind of people. If they're to lazy to look up the FAQ or Wiki or whatever it is...just ignore them...because in the end, they're to lazy to play Unreal.

[Leo T_C_K]

I use 227 for joining 227 servers now. But I don't use it as main version, but I find this one much improved over the previous versions, even though I still don't like few things (that bruterocket explosion decal lol, etc) and some forceful integrations or that some other things should be in separate package imo.

But why go so crazy about it? Do you seriously expect all people liking the changes? I personally think the patch would be finer without some of the enhancements (but some, as the security etc are indeed fine but that is not the enhancement I mean, I mean the visual things etc). But that is how I feel it.
That is just my view, even if there are others who share my feeling.
I don't think the people are ignorant about it. At all I think you did something beyond others expectation, 227 could be just like UTPG patch and it would be alright for me.
I certainly did not want of any of my bug reports or opinions to hurt you or feel bad about this....

[[]KAOS[]Casey]

Forceful integrations? can you explain?

also : just turn decals off if it annoys you that much. Or someone could make a new one and we can use that instead.

All of the visual things can be disabled. Every single one, except for emitters which is a mapper/modder choice and it's their right to use those.

imho.. UTPG did not address anything worthwhile, it's basically UT436 with a more stable and secure server, without addressing obvious flaws or implementations of anything to really help the community. I don't think they really covered many crash bugs if at all for clients..

This was made for everyone, and if you have complaints about something that really can't be ignored or shoved aside in some way by turning things off, you need to say them, like that seperate package thing.. which anyone can create, actually. Google UModel and you'll find how to extract models from packages. Just make sure to change the names from the defaults so you don't get strange class errors if you load it in 227.

[[§Ŕ] ŤhěxĐâŕkśîđěŕ]

When I copied Unreal to give to one guy so he can playz0r, I put 227e on it (227f wasn't released yet, it was few months ago) and when Smirf released 227f, I said "YOU HAVE TO GET IT. NAO" so he did.

I try to be as descriptive as possible (I've included 4 sound samples in a post for ALAudio problemz) and I hate ignorance. Which means, if there's one optional setting that makes someone stay away from 227, it makes me vomit. I absolutely love 227 and I love the new content (beta stuff, Woodruff, etc.), and even it has some minor flaws, that'd never make me back away, I don't see the point in that... And everything is optional, for sure. I.e., just look at the blood options...

And I just don't get it how can it "break the mood"? If it breaks the mood, use Galaxy + Software Rendering god damnit.

Finally, even if you don't like 227, just give the man some respect, he deserves it...

[Hyper]

Is it just me or why do I have the impression that in the last time I only get complains instead of reports?

Not much to report here really. After reporting many issues with the private beta's, the current 227f release candidate surely feels as final. I already thanked and appreciate your tremendous work here, and I would like to repeat this again by now.

Is it just that me that I expect to much?
I spend so many hours and months of work into this patch that I can't count them anymore, so is it asked to much to get a bugreport with a few details, the when, the what, a way to reproduce? To verify if the same bug maybe happens in other version or even UT too? To spend a few minutes to verify and compare things instead to complain?

Why do I have to read: Its not working I'm switching back to..., why can't I read: This is not working as before or as I expected, why is it that way and can it be changed?
Instead I'm reading: I won't use 227 because it isn't the same feeling (although any 227 feature is optional and gameplay is completely untouched)?
Why do I read: This and that is missing in the wiki instead someone is just adding it? Why do I read the quality is bad but when I ask for help nobody does?
Why am I writing a FAQ if being asked the questions all over again and again ?
Why am I writing release notes (44! Pages as PDF in the patch including FAQ)and being asked again and again what's new in 227?
Is it me? Is it my headache?
Is it my bad mood?
Maybe I'm just to tired, maybe I'm all wrong about that, am I?
What did I miss? I don't get it, it seems.

I've seen a great variety in quality of the bug reports here. Some people really need to supply more details, logs, etc. (Ageukkeli for example)

But as I said before, you will need to understand that not everything is reproducible by the issuer of the report. We can supply you with everything that the game tells us (logs, error messages, parts of config files(if it applies) hardware/driver details (if it applies) a description if possible.


For any report should count: The issuer should have done reasonable effort to supply as much relevant details as possible. If that's not the case: feel free to lock the topic.

[Blue Ion]

Perhaps I'm guilty of not reading the docs trough about the new features of the patch and asking yet again about it. But the 227 release notes wiki page is a bit disordered and after a while reading it I found myself skimming it and not getting anything. That's when I decided to ask since I thought there would be some kind of summarized list of new features, and fixes since 226 but I might have missed it.
For that, I'm willing to help to clean up that page, to make it better newcomer accessible, though being as little active in the community as I am, I would need help for some special fixes of features that I may not understand well what are they for.

As for the 227 features breaking the mood or anything, honestly, I don't understand how. Everything can be turned of or configured, but by everything it is the two little things that are changed like could be decals or even the updated renderers.
I'm actually quite happy with these, specially because I used to play the game using the Oldskool amp for UT where you can play Unreal with UT features, and weapons, and I loved it.
The game is also feels more stable, specially the editor (a side from the mouse wonkynes sometimes and some 3 vertices missing crashes but very few times) and I really appreciate that.

It's not like it is a completely new game either, where Smirftsch added realtime shadows, bumpampping and all those features of modern games and everyone else remade the whole game to put UT3 to shame (we still can dream, though  :D )

So, I, and I bet  most of the people here, ask you to continue making the wonderful work you do with the game, but taking the appropriate rest from time to time, to avoid getting it on your nerves. Specially after you release the final, a well deserved rest.

[Age]

227f is awesome and makes Unreal real playable.

[Pravin]

Smirf, you're right, I think that people have generally been complaining. I have to admit I myself am kind of skeptical about a few things in 227, like client-side restrictions (I liked messing with editactor and set when I got bored), and share some of Leo's concerns about there perhaps needing be some package separation, but overall I have no major complaints about it... and besides, who am I to complain anyways? I've yet to find any bugs with 227f, apart from the usual idiocy brought about by Unreal (like TCPLink actors not automatically closing on level switch, dunno if this is fixed but it's tim sweeney's fault for being a moron), and IN FACT the game is MUCH more stable, way more than gold, or 225f, 224... etc.

Yeah, I have to admit, I'm kind of conservative when it comes to Unreal.. I think it's not too hard to reason why though; the game IS over a decade old, so it's probably grown on some people, and they don't want it turning into something less classic.. But by no means does the 227 patch even DO this; 227 fixes stupid errors on Epic's part and greatly improves stability. In fact, even though I'm conservative-minded on some of what makes the Unreal experience, I myself am anticipating the final release of 227, so I can finish a couple old mods of mine! So, really, for anyone who's going to complain without trying and don't realize the several hundred hours of effort that this team is putting in on their own free time, grow up. The only person I think ever did this was "gamenut" though, but I could be mistaken. oh well.

And yeah, take your time on it. There are more important things in life than coding and listening to unruly (and ungrateful) users complain, if that's how you feel. Take a break and do it at your own pace, nobody here has any right to tell you otherwise.

[Turboman.]

As some mentioned before, only the whiners post, the rest is too busy playing the game without bugs or crashes

[Leo T_C_K]

As some mentioned before, only the whiners post, the rest is too busy playing the game without bugs or crashes  :D

I tend to disagree...I think even people who want to help post...

anyway who made the woodruff? It's just another nalifruit isn't it? Except having different mesh.

[+SanguineRose+]

As I said before... I love 227f and found no problems in it at all playing.

[[]KAOS[]Casey]

As some mentioned before, only the whiners post, the rest is too busy playing the game without bugs or crashes  :D

I tend to disagree...I think even people who want to help post...

anyway who made the woodruff? It's just another nalifruit isn't it? Except having different mesh.

smirf's own touch, he didnt want the crappy bandage as a health item, i mean honestly who would want to use a bloody roll of toilet paper?..

[Smartball]

Finally, even if you don't like 227, just give the man some respect, he deserves it...

I believe this says it all.

I don't even consider myself an active member of the Unreal community anymore, so maybe I have no business posting on this, but I had to agree with that statement. You can't disregard the hours of someone's life that they've devoted to others and asked for nothing in return.

I also think that any mod maker on this forum will agree that no matter what project you ever work on, the end result never pleases everyone. There's always complaints. There will always be complaints. You just have to weed out the idiots and listen to the sensible ones.

[Oblivion[CW]]

You know the real problem?..

Everyone thinks Unreal is their baby and that they gave birth to it.

Wash off the after birth guys.

[WonderSlug]

I love about 90% of 227f.

It allows me to use the ultra hi-res S3TC textures, features updated vidoe and audio renderers that give great spatial audio and OpenGL and D3D9 high-quality graphics with excellent performance.

I also like the Music Menu.

The only wishes I have are that it doesn't yet fully work with Unreal Gold, since it removes the UT99 style menuing and breaks the ability to play the Na Pali expansion.

One other wish is having many more save slots. I like to save at the start of each level after the "Loading" message. With the standard Unreal and Na Pali expansion, that's about 50+ required save slots to handle them all. Right now, I have to wait until I fill them up, archive them, and then overwrite them. So, I have about 6 ZIP archives, each with about 9 save files and the appropriate User.INI file to point to the names of the locations. I'd like a large number of save slots, with a scrollbar to scroll up or down.

Other than those two things, 227f is great.

[[]KAOS[]Casey]

You can use the ut99 style menuing with umenuconsole, just hit up preferences>drivers>console and restart unreal.

More save menu slots hmm.. nobody's ever mentioned that. Should be easy to do but I suck at uwindow. good idea though.

RTNP is coming eventually

[Spike]

Can't say i honestly have any issues with 227.



PS: Casey FIX IT OMG.

[[]KAOS[]Casey]

I'm trying.

Also interesting note about an import I found in upak.

ExecWarning: C:\UnrealGold\UPak\Classes\RocketLauncher.uc(26) : ExecWarning, Import texture JRL1st4 from MODELS\ROCKETLAUNCHER\ASMDSMG.PCX failed

Also, these guys were extremely incompetent with textures. They commonly imported the same texture file multiple times to use different names. For example, naliskel uses the same texture twice under 2 names for the meshmap. In effect it uses double the texture memory because of that. Totally stupid.

[Spike]

yay i spotted the fail