OldUnreal (Engine)

Hey all!

Sweet forum btw and good job for keeping it alive! I was wondering if anyone could help me with a legal question i have concerning Unreal.

Could I be held accountable for copyright infraction if i took the Unreal game, moded it and released it for free to the community. I understand it would be very costly for me if i sold it but what if it was released for free?

Any Unreal fans here happen to be a legal advisor?  

uh. Are you talking about something different than the stuff here?
http://oldunreal.com/mods.html

If not, then obviously not; it's encouraged (look up the 'Make Something Unreal' contest)

If you are talking about something different, the answer is probably still no. Anything you do in UScript should be perfectly legal. If you know how to use the public C++ headers and make a mod using C++ code instead of UScript, you again shouldn't be able to do anything illegal. Reverse engineering the game or extracting game information to make an unreal mod in another game (other than another game in the unreal franchise) would almost certainly be illegal, and I seriously doubt you'd need to do it.

If I didn't already answer your question you're going to have to be MUCH more specific as to what you're talking about.

That's really helpfull, thanks.

These mods seem to have their own maps though, unless i'm wrong.
To be more specific, the best way to explain it without giving away too much would be like rereleasing the unreal 1 single player game but in a more cinematographic experience.

So my reasoning here is, if i use epic's work wich is unreal and "add to it", do i need some kind of copyright agreement with the companies since im using their copyrighted work, or maybe i could get away with bribing Cliff blizesky?  :P

To be more specific, the best way to explain it without giving away too much would be like rereleasing the unreal 1 single player game but in a more cinematographic experience.

You mean, modding the stock maps?

I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Let's say you're taking a legal copy of Unreal, making some weapon mods, some custom models and skins, putting them with a series of maps (as a new SP adventure), etc.

Then you bundle the whole thing up (script changes, etc.) and release the whole "mod" with the engine for FREE to the public.

In otherwords, I don't have to go out and purchase the game (with its engine, etc.) to play this mod ... it includes it all.

Well, no matter how much (or little) you modify the game, using only UScript itself, you are still giving away free copies of the engine.

That would be illegal ... big time !!

Now, if you have custom game modes with their own weapons and maps that you can drop into a bought Unreal.

OK.

That would be similar to the Serpentine mod (with its weapons, etc.) all place in custom SP maps. As long as you don't mess with the source code itself, don't distribute free copies of the engine, and don't use other copyright material in the mod it should be fine.

I think it basically comes down to ...

Does the player have to purchase a legal copy of Unreal to play your mod? If the answer is no, then you are giving away the engine for free.

Free or not, you have to pay for the rights to publish their engine.

That's like the original counterstrike being given away for free, and you don't need to buy HalfLife to play it, as the HalfLife engine comes free with the mod.

Valve would flip out big time, as Epic would.

To distribute their engine (free or not) you have to have the "rights" to do so. Period.

I think you can mod maps, etc, change their names (to avoid incompatibility issues) and make sure that mod requires Unreal 1 to play it... I think it'd be perfectly legal this way.

Simple enough: distributing .U, .UTX, .UMX, .UAX, .UTX, .INT, .INI files is OK. Distributing .DLL and .EXE files is not.

Well stated Emerald. Far better than my long-winded post. Cudos !!

Simple enough: distributing .U, .UTX, .UMX, .UAX, .UTX, .INT, .INI files is OK. Distributing .DLL and .EXE files is not.

Not quite.

Distributing any .u, .utx, .umx, and .uax files that you have written yourself is perfectly fine. You cannot distribute the ones that come with the game. I believe that if you take an original file and modify it, you're allowed to distribute that, i.e. adding stuff to an existing map. Remember, the files that come with unreal are Epic's intellectual property, so you can't just distribute them, even though they're not in a format that can be easily read without the official software.
Distributing the .exe file is a no-no, although just the exe file(s) won't do anyone any good.
Same deal with the dlls. You can't distribute those if they came with the game, but as I said before it is possible to make your own dlls that work with unreal, and it is of course perfectly fine to share those.

So, if i would release it, it would have to be an addon to unreal. Not the complette game itself. So i can distribute any modified unreal files (including maps) as long as they have been modified and are not exe or dll's.

So for example i would release the corresponding .unr files and the necessary u.files to run it and everything would be ok. Keeping in mind that the unr files are the maps from single player unreal and they only have classes modifications/integration.

Correct.

And Bane, getting all other files than EXEs and DLLs is easy anyway, you can get them from any redirect services and extract the files (but you first need UCC and engine code so it could do something).

Well thanks to all for the enlightenment! I'll probably check in with epic when everything comes down to it , in case. But that was very helpful advise. Great community here!

So, if i would release it, it would have to be an addon to unreal. Not the complette game itself. So i can distribute any modified unreal files (including maps) as long as they have been modified and are not exe or dll's.

So for example i would release the corresponding .unr files and the necessary u.files to run it and everything would be ok. Keeping in mind that the unr files are the maps from single player unreal and they only have classes modifications/integration.

I think so. But keep in mind that you CAN'T change native unreal .u files (UnrealI.u, UnrealShare.u, etc) nor redistribute 'em. For me it's mostly about compatibility issues . You can also use all new features in 227 .

It's hardly possible to change the stock packages, and if you still manage to do that, you wouldn't be able to play on the net.

And using 227-only features will make the pack unavailable to people who don't want to update to 227. However, I don't see why they wouldn't want to do that anyway...

And using 227-only features will make the pack unavailable to people who don't want to update to 227. However, I don't see why they wouldn't want to do that anyway...

If they don't want to use 227, fine. Zillions of people upgrade to new versions of games every day, hour, minute, every second.

If someone doesn't want to upgrade, it's his problem, new patches are going out, if someone stays out-of-date, it's his problem and noone else's.

As food describes the eater, version of the game describes the player.

Correct.

And Bane, getting all other files than EXEs and DLLs is easy anyway, you can get them from any redirect services and extract the files (but you first need UCC and engine code so it could do something).

I find that hard to believe, because I assure you, it is illegal. Yes, it is harmful to send out the textures/music/whatever because it is possible for people to make 3rd party tools to extract the files from unreal's format. Hell, wotgreal does it.

So, if i would release it, it would have to be an addon to unreal. Not the complette game itself. So i can distribute any modified unreal files (including maps) as long as they have been modified and are not exe or dll's.

So for example i would release the corresponding .unr files and the necessary u.files to run it and everything would be ok. Keeping in mind that the unr files are the maps from single player unreal and they only have classes modifications/integration.

Well thanks to all for the enlightenment! I'll probably check in with epic when everything comes down to it , in case. But that was very helpful advise. Great community here!

You can use the tools that come with unreal to make new content. You can use existing content as a basis (i.e. use existing texture files, music). You are free to distribute what you make however you want, provided you don't make any money off of it. You cannot distribute the game in full or in part. Anything you make cannot be standalone; it must be based off of unreal and require unreal to run.

Is there still any ambiguity about this? Unless you just aren't telling us something, there's no need to contact Epic. Take a look at the mods page I linked to in my first post. Is what you're planning on doing anything like that? Are you planning on doing anything that none of those mods seem to do, or doing it in a way that none of them do? If not then there's definitely no problem because you'd just be doing what other people have already done.

Bane, i havent had the time to check out the mods. But with the info i got on this board i guess that my only concern should be with the unreal single player maps, as the mod would require me to distribute all of them for the player to be able to play through.

As for the mod itself, it would be something completly new, maybe not ground breaking, but definitly something original. Imagine playing through Unreal under a different perspective than first person view, actual cutscenes and action scenarios. That is the kind of mod that i am aspiring. Something reminiscent of survival horror video games.

my only concern should be with the unreal single player maps, as the mod would require me to distribute all of them for the player to be able to play through.

That's a big problem. You're really going to have to be clear here. Are you trying to make something using unreal that people will be able to use without legally owning a copy of unreal (lets pretend warez doesn't exist) that they bought in a store, ebay, from the totally unreal package, etc? If so, then what you are planning on doing is almost certainly illegal. It sounds like you are trying to use the unreal engine to make a 'movie' viewable to people without having the game (i.e. so they can preview what it's like; a trailer that shows the entire product). To do something like that you would have to get a copy of the unreal license from Epic. I have no idea what the procedure for that is (and UE1 probably isn't even available for sale anymore), but it would certainly cost money.

Now, are you sure you aren't just horribly confused about this whole thing? Your 'problem' of having to distribute the single player maps is such a big red flag to me because if you're making any kind of real mod that runs in unreal, there's no need to distribute the single player maps, or any of the content (on that note, the maps are next to useless without also giving out all the textures, sound effects, and music files). If it's a "mod" in the traditional sense, like everything on that page, then it requires the user to have a copy of unreal, and thus they'd obviously already have the single player maps. Or maybe you just think a mod needs new maps? That's certainly not true. Only a few really big mods on that page (RealCTF and Infiltration to name two) have their own map packs. Unless they significantly change gameplay, like RealCTF does, there's no need for new maps. Most just work file on the original deathmatch maps or custom maps that people have made over the years. My Hide and Seek mod mostly just uses a handful of the single player maps, so no it isn't restricted to the deathmatch maps. I already said that you're free to reuse any of the content that comes with the game. This does include maps.

What about the beta demo from 1997/98? And its UEd? It says that it's a TOP SECRET CONFIDENTIAL beta, yet Hyper has it available for d/l on his site. Demos are usually legal, but what does 'top secret confidential' mean in this case? The demo leaked back then, it wasn't released.

It sounds like you are trying to use the unreal engine to make a 'movie' viewable to people without having the game (i.e. so they can preview what it's like; a trailer that shows the entire product). To do something like that you would have to get a copy of the unreal license from Epic. I have no idea what the procedure for that is (and UE1 probably isn't even available for sale anymore), but it would certainly cost money.

Wrong. Look up "Unreal Engine 2 Runtime".

And I don't see how distributing packages can be illegal. You don't have the Engine nor Core, so maps are useless for you. If you have them, then you have the game. Simple as that.

It sounds like you are trying to use the unreal engine to make a 'movie' viewable to people without having the game (i.e. so they can preview what it's like; a trailer that shows the entire product). To do something like that you would have to get a copy of the unreal license from Epic. I have no idea what the procedure for that is (and UE1 probably isn't even available for sale anymore), but it would certainly cost money.

Wrong. Look up "Unreal Engine 2 Runtime".

And I don't see how distributing packages can be illegal. You don't have the Engine nor Core, so maps are useless for you. If you have them, then you have the game. Simple as that.

Wow, I didn't know the engine was freely distributed. Well, if that is basically what he's planning on doing, and UE1 is also available (UE2 probably wouldn't be able to handle unreal's maps. Just a guess though) then he could make his own executable and other files that use the original maps, but it'd still require a copy of unreal because you can't distribute the maps.

If I were to take UEd and export every texture file to a .PCX (or whatever format), export every sound file to a WAV, export and convert every music file to OGG, and post those on a website for everyone to download, would THAT be legal?
If you sent someone every texture file that comes with unreal, they would be able to get every texture out of the unreal packages without owning the game. Just because the archives aren't a .zip or .rar or .tar, or any other format that there are common tools to extract the contents from doesn't mean that it can't be done. Last I checked the unreal package file format wasn't patented, meaning that anyone with the know-how can make a tool to extract the contents, and that program can be freely distributed. I am quite sure that the textures, music, sounds, scripts, and even the maps are considered to be the intellectual property of Epic or whoever it is that currently owns U1, even if the content in question, i.e. the maps, is of no use without having the whole game.

In short, the player would need unreal to play the mod, all i would need to distribute is the maps (single only) and the .U files required to run it. My mod is based on the single player experience, woudn't it make sense to have to modify the maps and redistribute them for it to work? When the maps for Unreal 1 were made, they were made with the included objects, classes etc. My mod adds in new classes for example, so for the classes to work i have to rearange the maps in the editor accordingly. Since classes and actors in unrealed are game and player dependant, this makes for a complete player interaction. This is no movie that you can just watch and eat popcorn too. Although i would probably have to build a trailer at some point to attract a bit of attention. Unreal is over 10 years old after all.

But Bane, how come is it that if you change an official map, say, make it DmMapNameFix.unr, you can then distribute it? It would be almost the same as the original, only with the filename changed. That's why I guess packages shouldn't be distributed, unless it's in .uz format, but maps can be. For all of those you need the game or they're useless.

Unrealer, you can distribute everything that's yours and everything that is based on stock content... So if you modify maps, you can host them.

To do something like that you would have to get a copy of the unreal license from Epic. I have no idea what the procedure for that is (and UE1 probably isn't even available for sale anymore), but it would certainly cost money.

Actually, it's entirely impossible. Jackrabbit, being the lunatic he is, once contacted Epic's licensee division and inquired about purchasing the rights to UE1, to which they laughed and said they don't even sell that license anymore. As far as Epic is concerned, the only way Unreal will ever be distributed again is through Steam or Unreal Anthology.

In short, the player would need unreal to play the mod, all i would need to distribute is the maps (single only) and the .U files required to run it.

Why do you need to distribute the maps to people who have the game, and therefore have the maps?

But Bane, how come is it that if you change an official map, say, make it DmMapNameFix.unr, you can then distribute it? It would be almost the same as the original, only with the filename changed. That's why I guess packages shouldn't be distributed, unless it's in .uz format, but maps can be. For all of those you need the game or they're useless.

Unrealer, you can distribute everything that's yours and everything that is based on stock content... So if you modify maps, you can host them.

Beats me. I'm no lawyer. Maybe it's legal if you change even a tiny detail. Maybe it's illegal but no one cares. But exporting the maps aren't useless without the game because it's possible to convert them to other games, making them usable. I have no idea if that is legal though, or if a manually done "conversion", i.e. remaking E1M1 from Doom by hand to work in unreal is legal.