THE 227 question...

[Verdigo]

Will gold users be able to use this update by replacing files so it works? Or is that UnrealShare.logo thing going to cause problems? If the logo does cause problems then do you have the source art as well as the source code to allow for a complete recompile of UnrealShare.u?

[SomeAliasWhore]

I still have Unreal installed!!! I don't play online much but who cares that a new patch breaks compatibility?? a new patch is there for a reason, nobody will be run off, people will still play, if they quit playing because of a new patch then they were probably either on their way out already or have been cheating for a while and were not motivated enough to update their haxorz.

Bring on teh new patch! I will install it, no biggy, and thank you for all your dedication and hard work Smirftsch!! I would send you money if I had some to send

[Kajgue]

I'm not quite certain what the downside of backwards network compatibility is, but if 227 is compatible with simply all versions of the game that is good enough for me.

It depends what the negative points of doing so are, however. Anyone care to point these out?

[Hyper]

Ok, after some more thinking I placed my vote for 100% compatibility. This is with the info I have now the safest option.

[Zombie]

BUT the major reason is the security - to make a real effective anticheat system it would break netcompat. Everything else will be probably breached within a few weeks or months and it would require again addition tools and mods to secure a server.

...

OH, and almost forgot another "little" thing- i think it can be almost called sure that 227 clients won't be able to play on older servers as well- current anticheat programs like Uprotect don't recognize 227 which would force the serveradmins to turn off the autokick or switch to another protection system (which doesn't exist i'm afraid, at least nothing really secure), because UProtect isn't maintained anymore and there have been some reports which lead to the impression even UProtect is maybe already bypassed by some cheats/bots/hacks.
So whats left ? IMHO the only logical conclusion is to make a cut and set up a clean, stable and secure new version. Everything else is half-done and probably not the 227 everyone is waiting for.

Think about it, maybe you reconsider.

Not all servers are DM/Team or Player-VS-Player servers. There are coop servers which don't consider cheats an issue and would probably want all possible clients regardless to be able to connect if they ran a 225 server.

I still prefer to be able to join 224-226 servers with a 227 client. If the decision in the end is to break such compatibility then I just hope that it will not lead me in a long stretch to use a 225/226 client to join older servers and then switch to a 227 client to join the 227 servers. That kind of annoyingness is what 'could' make the community worse.

As for hosting servers I don't know yet if I'll want to change to 227 without it looking to be neccessary. I already don't like the fact that 226Gold clients can't join 227. It's a shame the network changes of 226/227 couldn't be reverted back to duplicate 225 to fix that.

In the end you can put me in the compatibility catagory for 227 client/server. IMO it might be best to wait and see how the community would respond to a compatible 227 patch first, and if it looks like most took it in well after a few months than consider the break in a 228 patch.

There is one more thing that has been making me think on the 227 project. I don't know about the current state of the uscript changes of packages and the new packages or structures that have been implemented as a carry-over from 226Gold. I would love to be able to see a "snap-shot" at any time of the current states of each supported uscript package so that I know if I need to begin preparing uscript changes in my own mods. I'm especially wondering how exactly the UnrealConsole has been brought over from 226Gold because my gametype mod initiates a replacement console. Plus, this open viewing would allow others to proof check and see if fixes aren't implemented yet. I don't see why this couldn't be done considering the uscript source will be viewable at patch release.


-Zombie

[dinwitty]

I don't care either way because I don't play this game online anymore. I still mess around with single player now and then but that's it. I always preferred Coop over anything else but you can replay the same game just so many times. I mean this game is old why bother. Why not just work on making a single/coop Unreal mod work under one of the newer Unreal Engines instead?

This is a fine idea, however it will require tons of work that has gone already into making this 227 patch.
This is what the UT99 Unreal mods did already. It would have to require modding the new engine to accept all the compatibilies of the Unreal maps.
Things like Invasion uses the Unreal creatures but for the real lot, they just don't fit in to the higher detail of the new engine, and personally the characters just need a hires rework.

How I feel about network compatibility? Presumably 224/225/226 can connect to each other.
Basically what I want to see in a 227 patch is all the brokens in previous versions fixed for a 227 patch.
You think shadows can be made to work in 227? dunno.
For a 227 patch I would get it ready for the possible 228 that WOULD break compatibility, if everyone can patch over to 227. If the 227 rides fine I will dump ALL my previous versions of Unreal.
As long as all mods work fine, then cool.
Give 227 a test first with compatibility, if cool, break it in 228.
I would want EPIC to review this patch for their blessings.
Tim Sweeney at least email him.
NOT Mark Rein.

I actually dont care if it breaks compatibility or not because if it works fine, its the only version I would use, its the other users I am thinking about.
If a server is running 227 and its staying compatible still have the download notice.
Go one step at a time and fix all the current problems. If good, then a 228 to break it would be OK with me.

[Smirftsch]

Well, of course I don't have an answer to this question, but it HAS to be coded/ported anyways, no matter if you are doing it in an incompatible 227 or ask the Unreal anti-cheating community to come up with a 225-227 compatible tool. And because it has to be done anyways, it's probably better to try the 225 compatible solution instead. Or do I miss an important clue here?

yes, indeed, you do
with having all the sources its way more effective and simple to provide a complete new security system, which isnt possible with "only" mods and addons. The solution needs of course a lot of work, and i will need the community to help me with it. But the result will be more secure and will cause less overhead and decreases the workload of servers. Which answers this as well:

If this 227 patch works fine and irons out the bugs of 226 and gold with added security,with the added bonus of a common base for all players and servers(all the same patch) then im all for it...no questions.

It never harmed UT having to download the same patch that the server was running on.

The only reservations i have are that it must NOT in anyway effect the gameplay or try to be UT UT2 or whatever.

just one question though....would these security implementations increase the overall workload of the servers and hence more lag?
Would they be customisable? or just a neat little background script that u dont notice?

My absolute priority is NOT TO CHANGE the gameplay, I would NEVER EVER do that, it would kill the game that I (WE ALL) love. I simply want to make it the best quality possible.

Which of the security functions will be customizable is hard to tell, i will do as much as possible directly native into the code.

This leads me to the questons of Zombie- i will need you anyway probably a lot of times until 227 is really finished - to verify stuff- currently there are aside some minor things only the security changes in uscript from you. Nearly everyting else yet is native and doesnt affect any scripts and mods.

[Ravenus]

I don't mind compatibility breakups if new features are added...but then I am purely a single-player so network compatibilities don't affect me at all

[Canadian_Bacon]

ya know, i don't care anymore. i'm getting impatient, i jsut want the patch if its compatible or not :-/

[Hyper]

ya know, i don't care anymore. i'm getting impatient, i jsut want the patch if its compatible or not :-/

There is no room for inpatience here. I know many players want a patch rather yesterday but when you think of the difficulty and the time needed to fix all those bugs it's not realistic to demand a patch now.

When the time is right it could be nice if Smirftsch released some alpha's or beta's for people to play with and test.

[Acleacius1]

Thanks for the email notice Smirftsch.

If you guys need to break compatablity GO, GO, GO! :cheer:
You guys have done so much to help Unreal, this is obvioulsy the next step unless of course anyone is up for a TC of 2004.

I can't believe people are actually suggesting not breaking compatablity, no one is forcing them to upgrade, right?
Hold back potienal of growth, for fear?
Nah, not me, anyway.

People get redirected all the time to download the newest upgrades anyway, just give them a nice brief readme and a choice yes or no, thank you very much.

Best of luck, keep it up, you guys ROCK! :bowdown:

[BeetleJuice]

HI, i agree with mirftsch : If a server runs 227 and an older client tries to connect he would get something like: "Please update your version of Unreal to version 227, which can be found at www.oldunreal.com" ....

So, no problem, the client know where to d/l the patch , he install it, and join the server ...

Step by step all server owner and players change unreal with  the 227 patch and everybody keep compatibility with all servers . If everybody have the same version, finish the pb beetween 225/226f/gold  .

All this for say : it's not important if 227 isn't compatible with older versions, cause a player who play with an older versions can upgrade easyly .

The more important is the maps compatibility of course . If there's a choice to do for the maps, the better is compatibility with 225 , the converter 226f -> 225  already exist  so ...  :D

[Bane]

I can't believe people are actually suggesting not breaking compatablity, no one is forcing them to upgrade, right?
Hold back potienal of growth, for fear?
Nah, not me, anyway.

OK. Here's the problem with breaking backwards compatibility.

If this is done, then there will be two version sets that CANNOT play together. 224/225/226 and 227. Right now, there is no serious problem. Everyone can join a 225 or a 224 server, and most servers are running 225. 226f and 226b cannot join each others servers, but that isn't a huge problem, really.

Then 227 comes along. Breaks compatibility. Chances are, a lot of people are going to upgrade, just from the current hype alone. 227 servers will pop up. Only 227 clients will be able to join. If ANYONE doesn't upgrade, either because they don't like the changes (its a possibility. No matter how good something is, there will always be people who don't like it), they will be completely unable to join these servers. If 50% people patch and 50% don't, the community is suddenly half as big. 50% of the servers will be unplayable, whether you patched or didn't. 50% of the players won't be able to join these servers, either. It would certainly suck to be forced to use a patch you don't like so you can join your favorite servers.   Having backwards compatibility would fix that, right away.

If everyone that currently plays patches to 227, then the problem is almost completely gone. All of the current players will be able to join all of the servers (except, of course, any servers that are left running but forgotten. There might be some.)  However, any new players will have trouble joining the servers. Its always possible that they just won't patch, or can't figure out how to patch, or some other problem. At the very least, this will make it harder for people to get online. Right now, using a purchased copy of UnrealGold, it is incredibly easy to get online. No patches needed (none available). Despite Unreal being such an old game, we still get a good number of new players, likely because unrealgold is very cheap in stores, and because its so easy to go online and play with the multitude of mods that have been made over the years (INF, anyone? Serpentine? RealCTF? U4E?). I'm sure that no matter how easy it is, not everyone will upgrade. Not even all of the current players.

With broken compatibility, it pretty much means that EVERYONE has to upgrade or EVERYONE has to choose not to. Otherwise it'd cut the already small community up even more.

[DieHard SCWS]

[glow=yellow,2,300]Quote from Bane[/glow]

OK. Here's the problem with breaking backwards compatibility.

If this is done, then there will be two version sets that CANNOT play together. 224/225/226 and 227. Right now, there is no serious problem. Everyone can join a 225 or a 224 server, and most servers are running 225. 226f and 226b cannot join each others servers, but that isn't a huge problem, really.

Then 227 comes along. Breaks compatibility. Chances are, a lot of people are going to upgrade, just from the current hype alone. 227 servers will pop up. Only 227 clients will be able to join. If ANYONE doesn't upgrade, either because they don't like the changes (its a possibility. No matter how good something is, there will always be people who don't like it), they will be completely unable to join these servers. If 50% people patch and 50% don't, the community is suddenly half as big. 50% of the servers will be unplayable, whether you patched or didn't. 50% of the players won't be able to join these servers, either. It would certainly suck to be forced to use a patch you don't like so you can join your favorite servers.   Having backwards compatibility would fix that, right away.

If everyone that currently plays patches to 227, then the problem is almost completely gone. All of the current players will be able to join all of the servers (except, of course, any servers that are left running but forgotten. There might be some.)  However, any new players will have trouble joining the servers. Its always possible that they just won't patch, or can't figure out how to patch, or some other problem. At the very least, this will make it harder for people to get online. Right now, using a purchased copy of UnrealGold, it is incredibly easy to get online. No patches needed (none available). Despite Unreal being such an old game, we still get a good number of new players, likely because unrealgold is very cheap in stores, and because its so easy to go online and play with the multitude of mods that have been made over the years (INF, anyone? Serpentine? RealCTF? U4E?). I'm sure that no matter how easy it is, not everyone will upgrade. Not even all of the current players.

With broken compatibility, it pretty much means that EVERYONE has to upgrade or EVERYONE has to choose not to. Otherwise it'd cut the already small community up even more.

And that is my worry too.


And therefore i think at least we should have an compatible 227 testversion for extensive tests, so people can try it out before an eventual incompatible 228 patch.


I am actually completelly in favor for an incompatible 228 version that solves tons of problems and will have new possiblities we lack now (like improoved bot/server protection, sounds and so on)


But i share the worries as Bane states them, mainly for new players. And i only used the Masterserver as [glow=yellow,2,300]example[/glow] to show what can happen to new players. Just to point out people do NOT handle Unreal and its technologies as well as all other current users do.


People are either "stupid" or lazy, but that CAN mean we will loose an unwanted amount of new players we desperatelly need.


If however the compatible 227 patch works fine for everyone without any serious glitches or problems, than yes i am highly in favor of a new incompatible 228 patch, but only if the redirect is as clear as possible in multi languages !!! , and even if possible (i dunno) with a clickable link that directs to a multi lingual page or pages.


I think i pretty much speak for everybody that everyone would like to see the incompatible 228 patch. That is actually something we always wanted, because it means we can deal with problems from the core up, new features are possible which we only could dream of before, but only if will not break the community effectivelly in half.


Therfore i would suggest to have a test version from a compatible 227 patch for everyone to test.



So yeah, i completelly agree with Bane.
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[UKBikenut]

If someone is curious enough about playing online then they WILL regardless of what they have to do to get there.
Y`know the version of Unreal i have is 220 and that version doesn`t even have any network code(well a little for lan setup) but it didn`t stop me from finding the solution to playing online, (anyone remember Heat Net) and no doubt 1000`s of others aswell.(and back then i was complete and utter computer noob)  

[DieHard SCWS]

Yeah but backthan Unreal was the first Super Duper, Uber, Uber, Uber, Super Duper real 3D game, and everybody was willing to kill you mom, dad, grandfather/mother for it  to get the damn thing going

And alot more sites to find info.


And i hope i am wrong and you are right, but it worries me alot, what if not.........


But its cool to see all opiniums from everybody looking at different angles, who obvious care alot about their Old Good Unreal
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[Ram]

If someone is curious enough about playing online then they WILL regardless of what they have to do to get there.
Y`know the version of Unreal i have is 220 and that version doesn`t even have any network code(well a little for lan setup) but it didn`t stop me from finding the solution to playing online, (anyone remember Heat Net) and no doubt 1000`s of others aswell.

I agree here with Bikey, if a player wants to play online they will find the way.... Even the latest games still need patching from time to time. They all don't use steam technology to do it....

(and back then i was complete and utter computer noob)

Nothing changed there then

[Acleacius1]

What difference does it make if some don't like it, that is their choice.
You obvioulsy are making up the 50 do and 50 don't numbers in an attemp to make you arguement have more weight.

Of course 227 servers will popup that is a given, and the whole point is to move forward.
Using fear tatics like omg someone may not like it so we should all wait till everyone decides it's ok.
No one is forcing any one to do anything they don't want to do, but people from this forum are trying to make Unreal better.
If you think and expect them to do it perfectly the very first time and please everyone, it's you whom is not being realistic.

The only time I recall people not downloading something is based on a gameplay type they don't like or if a function they are intrested in breaks.
What the guys seem to be doing here, is trying to move Unreal forward and possible bring everyone back to the same patch in the first place.

The idea that Bob the player doesn't want to upgrade to 227 or his machine is still a 200 mhz machine which can't to some effects, so the whole community should just say ok forget about making it better we will stay where we are cause of Bob?
Bob can go play with himself or others that have a 200mhz machine and the comuninty will be there in 227 land when Bob decides to upgrade or changes his mind about upgrading to the 227 cause enough people have tested/tried it.

These guys are willing to do the work for the game we/they love and the community that plays it, tieing their hands should not be an option.

[Smirftsch]

there are many things out there i will answer later, but currently i'm short in time, just wanted to drop a note on the "low-end" machines- 227 will exactly have the same requirements the older patches have, it still contains the old glide renderer, it still contains old galaxy. It will not need more performance, and you don't NEED to use the new effects and possible features, but you CAN.

[mcfarrel]

I vote Yes for compatibility on the other hand from my point of view it is not necessary to be fully compatible and rathere good idea. If this patch will be compatible it will prevent some frustration of users whom would not be not knowing aboutr any further update to Unreal I. But if the changes of code and parts of game stuff prevents the back compatibility, I could not Saz it is for worst if Some (or all hopefully) issues and problems will be fixed in exchange for back compatibility).

Resume: If it could be back compatible let it be, if not. Well. Nothings happen after all.,

[Smirftsch]

sry if i'm maybe a little rude here, its just i have the impression people don't read or i am misunderstood. Anyone with older clients who tries to connect to a 227 server will be informed about the new patch and were to find it, SO THERE IS NO WAY SOMEONE DOES NOT KNOW!

Aside this, if the serveradmins decide to use 227 its easy for them to inform their community, it just requires a little bit help from them and the users are informed about everything.
This argument is simply no argument in my eyes...the only real valid reason in my eyes i read so far is from bane, and even with that don't fully agree - in MY opinion.

[Shambler]

Take a look at the UTPG patches for UT....There is a big split in UT1 between the final Epic patches and the UTPG patches.

Tons of people use the Epic 436 patch for their servers (and even clients) in UT1 even tho 451b is the latest UTPG patch, meaning there is a clear divide in the usage of the latest patch.


The mere possibility of something like that happening in Unreal1 should be taken very seriously and given a hard, open minded look...especially since inter-compatability is a major question.



At the best of times there seems to be a peak of at most 80 players on the servers in Unreal1, the community is delicate and has been fading for years (personally, I've lost any enjoyment out of the Unreal1 community)....a semi-rejected patch could split the remaining community and kill off the game if not handled carefully.

To be perfectly honest I've been questioning for a long time wether or not a new patch is really worth the effort, in the long run I feel it's more worth my time porting Unreal1 to UT2007...where it could be revitalised from an entirely new community.

[jackrabbit]

interesting that you bring up importing u1 into ut2007. If this project could be done, then it would revitalize the unreal community.

Its just too bad that this seems just as impossible as running a non-backward compatible patch for unreal

[TCP_Wolf]

To be perfectly honest I've been questioning for a long time wether or not a new patch is really worth the effort, in the long run I feel it's more worth my time porting Unreal1 to UT2007...where it could be revitalised from an entirely new community.

Somebody grab that can' o' beans he just opened!!! FAST!!! LOL!!!

[jackrabbit]

if we back up here .. the question is:

"Break backward compatibility to make 227 more secure ?"

okay.. now I have been recently trying to break the barrier here. The key item is "security features." I would like to know what would make unreal more secure for me as a player with the non-backward compatibility patch.