OldUnreal (Engine)

This topic desperately needs a title change. The current discussion -while be quite interesting- has nothing to do with

Nephthys anymore, as Pcube says:

... So for the record, Dante didn't "hack" anything. In fact,

LMAO he used MY console to exploit something in MY gametype, oh god the irony...

About the ongoing discussion:

I've been following this thread with interest. What's being said does not really surprise me. For many years now the Unreal community has been divided into at least two sub groups. One centered about political correctness and ages old netiquette. Traditionally centered around deathmatch / team with a few exceptions. Generally older members at least their prominent persons are. At it's best this group can be a wise parent who gives leadership and knowledge to the entire community. At it's worst they fall down to playing the role of the Unreal police, sanctioning anything that does not comply with their (un)written netiquette. Elitism is another thing to watch for.

The other group has more value for freedom, make their own ruleset and do not limit their creativity to the rules of netiquette. Fun is more important. This group is mostly centered around coop but not the entire coop community is in this group. At it's best this group drives innovation and creativity, providing a great playground to have fun together. At it's worst they fall down to hatred, disrespect and anarchy.


If we ever want to solve the breeding conflicts, a change of attitude is needed.

• First, we need to understand that we are dealing with real people here. In a computerized environment like a gaming community is is easily forgotten. Behind every nickname and character is a a person. People with families, strengths, weaknesses, illnesses, interests jobs and schools. Behind the computer screen it may be easy to judge each other but keep in mind that there is more going on than you see.
• Try not to see anything in black and white, good and evil. The truth is always more complex than that. Even the well-known Packleader can be a great person and surely did good things to the community, only recognized by a few. If you have a problem with someone, don't dismiss him/her as a person but try to solve the problem itself.
• Remember that it's still a game. Nothing more than a game. Rules are fine but the primary rule should be: Have fun and enjoy the game.
• Why all the hatred? IS it really needed to put a 'jerks' list on every Unreal site? Don't try to stigmatize people.
• By the nature of the medium, internet is an environment that provides great freedom to it's users. Since the possibilities are there, anyone should be welcome to write bots, radars and research the protocols for weaknesses. As said, without hacking and cheating many weaknesses of the game should never have been discovered and fixed. I believe in open source. If you use the freedom to dig into your cache for nice mods or coding ideas, tell the owner about it. Same thing in case you want to re-use anything. And give credits. Programmers put much effort in making their products.
• But a medium with this much freedom also asks for responsibility. Don't use your knowledge of the game to hack and crash people. Respect the rules admins set for their servers, you are playing on their computers. If you want to play or experiment with programming or using client-side extensions (Like bots, radars, consoles, automation etc.), make sure the server owner supports it. Or maybe you can host a server for it. It could be fun to have some bot wars server.
• Without very privacy-invading (spyware-like) measures, hacking and cheating will never be totally stopped. If Unreal would turn towards punkbuster-like behaviour which monitors more than the state of the game itself it would no longer be my game. Don't let the solution be worse than the problem.
• We as Unreal community really are a wonderful group of people with many talents. Let's work together on building the community instead of breaking it down.

It's a good thing that I break into cars, because better car alarms are invented. Wow. I've been totally wrong about the actions of others (who actively break the law). If you don't like a law and think that it's wrong, then use your intelligence and fortitude to actively (and legally) having the law changed. Also, most of the "cyber crimminals" that do make a living doing their hacks are hired AFTER they get out of jail (or pay a substantial fine). Think about that. Anyways, they ARE tagged "crimminals."

That's one way to make better security programs/car alarms. A better, more legal way to is find the faults and not exploit them yourself (and hopefully not let anyone else do it). It's not something you'd actual seen done, but in the car alarm example it'd be finding out how to break into your own or a friend's car and then telling the manufacturers, with the net equivalent being examining a encryption algorithm or website's security or similar, finding the faults, and telling whoever made it, e.x. me emailing Smirfy any securities issues I run across in 227. It's usually better received than the IRL example, but apparantly some big companies are using the DRM crap against it. Fun fact, adobe e-books use (or used) rot-13 to encrypt their files. A paper on the weak encryption was published and the guy who wrote it was arrested when he came to the united states for violating DRM laws.

long winded and lurking I am
I don't know even know where to begin but here is a start.
thank you to the Unreal community that have posted in this thread!!
the legal aspects of reporting bugs and exploits deservedly needs to be explored and hopefully at this time.
hyper.nl thank you for your post and IMHO it needs to be read by all who stumble across this thread.
my concern is with the thread in general.
in his initial post shivaxi said : 'Leader Dante hacked my server just today...so anyone who sees him should bann him... but anywayz...'
is it any wonder that somebody stood up for dante?
i think not
as far as the analogies go I think they are a waste of time other than to lure the guy standing up for dante into an argument that isn't relavant.
maybe dante has got admin envy? i don't know the guy so I can't say EDIT: 'with certainty'
but attacking (and here I am going to mention by name) ZEKE is harmful, not to zeke but to the community showing the true colors of human social interaction while at the same time preaching unity; hypocrisy.
Now i'm no expert in any means on the subject
BUT dont you think together we could admit these few things:
a) the server was attacked
b) the admin was concerned enough to post the event here
c) the initial post set the stage for the concept of community ban on an individual
d) the whole of the Unreal community CAN, but is not obligated to, realize the danger when it comes to a call to arms to take action against an individual.
now as far as the topic it does mention the word HACK
so however you wanna call it is up to you but please be clear is this issue resolved?
now I am going to step out on a limb here:
IMHO zeke does not need to be made to be the bad guy here as a matter of fact it was noble for him to make a stand.
if I am wrong please let me know but dont use analogies to complicate the matter just the facts to form the hypothesis of your argument PLEASE.
as far as continuing this thread I would hope that we can approach this from a social experiment point of view as I see it the facts are that there is a bridge between the PLAYERS and the ADMINS and we do need to get along. ppl please get it together as this is a most interesting social experiment that goes beyond Unreal game play.
and remember my dodgeclicktime is prolly different than yours and the reason I say that is to qualify my argument so that if you don't know what 'dodgeclicktime' or 'prolly' means don't even bother with a reply.
I am not trying to be arrogant but if you dig a lil and google it I am sure you, as I have, can understand what I am talking about.
So please don't throw out everyone's idea or approach, because it just alienates yourself.
and I can honestly say ZEKE did get the short end of the stick on this one.
how do WE fix it? its up to you but as for me and my Unreal community ZEKE you are appreciated.
as for jackrabbit he didn't get the same treatment.
So lets not use the flack cannon when the dispersion pistol will do other wise we might not have what is needed when WE need it.
EDIT: 'as far as the ban goes fix the issue then lift the ban'
long live unreal thank you all
let the flames begin... ha
l8r
EDIT: http://www.oldunreal.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1196732931

wow, well said Secondattempt...and you 2 Hyper...your absolutely right about ppl behind the male1 skins and there lives...i don't think many ppl think of it that way. I know for a fact that Dante is in College and having a tough time passing his courses, but to take it out on me and my server...thats just not excusable.

so this is personal?
the premise for the the reason dante brought down the server could have been completely independent of his performance in other aspects of his life.
dante may have brought down the function of your server but certainly dante doesn't need other aspects of his life discussed unless you are dante or dante approves your discussion (especially in a forum like this).
That is why I didn't say my analysis of dante was certain or fact!
now I assume the attack was not personal I can justify it by saying that the server you run is not you it is just a tool and even if it were a personal attack against you dante is still just grasping at straws when it comes to YOU.
You can do what ever you want with your tool.
the ultimate attack against you would be on your intellect to break you down mentally. IMHO if dante did just that and broke you mentally by attacking your tool then he is indeed more an ally than an enemy because (hopefully) you see that YOU are not your server but what others think you are and guess what you can change that by knowing who you are.
l8r

Hyper and secondattempt couldn't have said it better, bravo.  Btw, Hyper I'm apart of the second group  ;). I was very aware Dante never attacked Moo Moo Land. I don't know about Shivaxi's server, but you are pointing the finger at the wrong person.

lol this entire thread is one big joke with the exeption of hyper and busters posts... Like pcube did say in his reply.. dante exploited pcubes xcoop using xconsole (both made by pcube) This is all a setup by pcube as a joke before he releases 1.7 of xcoop that has all essential security features.

btw, I like the list that hyper made and I think it should be saved as an article somewhere. I also liked busters analogies about buliding up security and to the point of not letting guests in your own home. I definitly feel this way in some of the coop servers running now... like i'm apart of some system and much like a "male2" and not a real person in the server (I wont name the servers) I really do think its a shame that people play the game this way..

haha
thanks jackrabbit
I blew off lunch waiting for a post and it finally came at dinner time
good job
l8r

Hey guys, I'm coming into this thread a little late; but there's a few things I'd still like to comment on.
Most everything has been touched on already, but here's my 2 cents (.18 CAD), for anyone that cares.

I will explain this more later, but one guy came in the server,with 2 names, and 2 ips, and then started to crash the server, he was
LoggedIPs[455]=,Player23,80.126.166.236,??????????
LoggedIPs[456]=,Player25,66.90.211.48,??????????

He was coming under two names, and then switching his ip, and coming in really fast under player names, I mean the names were switching in a matter of one second time frames, and then the server would crash, then he would come in again under a name Cleitc gunCW.. and also the name test, and then Do it again, the kickban would ban both ips.

As previously stated, its not possible that he 'changed IPs' mid-game. If I recall correctly, and there are certainly people here who can correct me if I'm wrong, ktban, edm, old uteam and a handful of others would fail to correctly establish the IP if two players joined at the exact same time. This could explain why you couldn't get an accurate address for him.

As for the attack he used, like asgard said it's probably some stupid little trick floating around.

I doubt this is a hack due to nepthys, but as nepthys offers security its to blame for things that can go wrong

Most likely its due to some of the little tricks floating around atm.

Really I guess we need a topic area that is a sticky (smiftsch) for known vunerabilities, and perhaps suggested fixes.

Some of these bugs are probablly easilly be squashed. Perhaps addressed further in the non beta ver.

Remember the "\secure" query overflow?

Cheating against AI isn't always why some run an anti-cheat for coop. Any form of cheating that gives an unfair competitive advantage (whatever that can be) to one player over others could be unwanted.


Co-op is meant for playing against AI, not other players. I feel that as a user, I am entitled in coop game to play against the AI in any shape or form regardless of the advantages over the other players in the server. If you want to play with an automatic rifle that does 9999 damage each shot, then so be it. If other players in the server don't like you playing your own way online, then they should go find another server. Simple as that.

Jackrabbit, your logic is so flawed. Who are you to say how a game is to be played in someone elses server? If you feel like playing your own way, you can always run your own or play single player.

Hello all,
Don't post here very often but I just had to comment on Pit's comment.
I agree with you 100% man.The cheats,hacks,scripts,exploits have ruined the game.You never know you're getting a fair game unless it's with a group of people you know personally.

The ammount of cheaters in Unreal are so minimal, I haven't run into one in years. Dare I say 99.9999% of the time you're getting a fair game.

Personally(I believe and have seen)my thoughts are that anyone who uses any kind of script,hack,cheat,will continue doing it regardless of the "I don't do that anymore garbage they spew".

That statement is borderline ignorant. How long has this game been around? I know I've been playing it for at least 7 or 8 years.
People grow up. People go from being attention-stared, hormone-crazed 12-year olds, to full-fledged, mature, responsible adults with full time jobs, bills to pay, and priorities that change.
I speak from experience; trust me. I was the one running around raising hell all that time ago.

But hey, that's just me 'spewing more garbage'.

As for Klingon,they are the scum of the earth.They have never done anything except attack servers in every way,shape or form they could.

Agree'd

As for Klingon,they are the scum of the earth.They have never done anything except attack servers in every way,shape or form they could.

Ok, you obviously don't know and have never talked to any of the clan members. You can get along with anyone in Klingon and have a great time hanging around with them in the game if you just give it a chance. I'm in Klingon, most people like me in the game...I admit I have my enemies and most of them are idiots, like Anarchy, Leo(T.C.K.)...or Jackson, etc.

Wow, Zeke. I've attempted to actually hold a conversation with Dante and Packleader multiple times as they attacked my servers for no reason in the past.
So, no I have never talked to any of the clan members, but yes I do know. Sure you can get along with them, even mass murders have their friends.



Continued...

...Continued

I've been playing this game since '99 (played UT first). I've been in Klingon for probably 4 or 5 years (maybe more)...Packleader isn't a bad guy if your on his good side. No he is not the leader anymore he stepped down...still unclear why, but still in the clan. Dante is the leader now. I won't dismiss the DoS attacks either...I've done them. But they tend to aim towards dumbasses like Jackson who tends to ban you for going afk for a minute or just not talking. I can name one attack right off the bat that Nephthys can't defend against...unless it had Super AI. It involves files (hint). You can't forget Father Tim either. If you have ever seen his website you'll see that he's notorious amongst many games and certain progams (ex. Teamspeak) for creating "Test" programs, DoS programs, etc. And I remember his short stay in Unreal, you said one thing bad about him he would attack you, or regardless try to attack you anyways, but he really was just a loner in my opinion.

Blow me. If I pay for a server and want to ban you for breathing, I will do so.

News flash on DoS attacks: You'd be suprised how many people not in Klingon have made consoles with a built in DoS feature (many of them we all know).

Stastically speaking, between 99-100% of teenagers will try weed or alcohol before the age of 17. So hey, that makes it ok.

I can name one attack right off the bat that Nephthys can't defend against...unless it had Super AI. It involves files (hint)..

Go ahead and elaborate, because honestly I would love to see this.

I did dig up the


Screenshots:
http://www.celticwarriors.net/Media/Pictures/01Hack03_08_2005.jpg
http://www.celticwarriors.net/Media/Pictures/02Hack03_08_2005.jpg
http://www.celticwarriors.net/Media/Pictures/03Hack03_08_2005.jpg
http://www.celticwarriors.net/Media/Pictures/04Hack03_08_2005.jpg
http://www.celticwarriors.net/Media/Pictures/05Hack03_08_2005.jpg
http://www.celticwarriors.net/Media/Pictures/06Hack03_08_2005.jpg


From the mail later on, its clear Nepthys was installed after that incident, Daniel did press official charges, but i have no idea what happend with that. The other thing i forgot was he even added a smiley to the IP adress. And clearify the quote, we did found out later on it had been Dante that did hack the server, and additionally, he did switch IP within the server and even pulled out smileys in the IP adres.
.
.
.

The attack in your screen shots is 'fake players'. Those are not actually real unreal clients. They're simply UDP packets sent with the same join-datagram. Anybody could whip something up to do this in 10 lines of vb code.

in-fighting amongst the community is killing this thread that IMHO was dead long ago...
please somebody be the hero and quit defending the actions of those who did the attack in the first place. IMHO A legitimate defensive posture could be assumed if the original 'hacker' made it clear to the admin of said server that there was a security issue.
and again IMHO It is clear that some more than others in the unreal community care about the game and the availability to play the game ONLINE with an ENJOYABLE experience but the idea of caring about each other as unreal players seems lost.
be a hero. drop it.
I don't wanna hear/chat/read about how you OR your buddy is proud about ruining my enjoyable experience when it comes to playing unreal because after all I am just here to frag.
and yes I read this topic from the beginning
l8r

Agreed, should we lock it?

No. It hasn't violated any of the site's rules. Conversation and debate is constructive to the community.
What's the point in having forums if we can't discuss issues?

See Havok's quote:

...it has sparked a lot of interest and got peeps to post that normally just lurk :-)

Reply on the 'talents' part, ive been making mods for a little bit then a year by now. But i don't understand why there are people who don't 'accept' your mods because your 'younger' as them. I am 15 years old, does that right away means im useless? there many people out there who dont want my mods because of that reason.

Reply on the 'talents' part, ive been making mods for a little bit then a year by now. But i don't understand why there are people who don't 'accept' your mods because your 'younger' as them. I am 15 years old, does that right away means im useless? there many people out there who dont want my mods because of that reason.

Age does not tell much. Things like computing / programming skills is something you can learn at very low age, if you have the interest and intelligence. The only thing that comes with age is general life experience, but this of cource differe widely from person to person. Judging people just by age is not a very smart thing to do.

This entire thread has been the BEST that I've read in years. I just can't express it well enough. God, I've been grinning so much that my freakin' cheeks hurt.

Thanks everyone !!

This is what a REAL gaming community is about, folks. You can almost physically "feel" the passion in the posts. The tidbits of opinion with a hint of logic. Words of wisdom hard won, and the innocent hostility of a child's tantrum in the store isle. And only in a few thousand (or so) words - LoL.

It's a rare thing to see so many different people, from different countries, ages, beliefs (etc) wrestle, "tag you're it," embrace similar reasonings, and just plain give a *insert explective* about something other than their own daily woes.

World political leaders could learn something from all of us. We can agree or argue, smile or frown, praise or curse (etc), but in the end we'll just get together on a server and try to blow the hell out of each other. And we'll laugh about it, together.

And some idiots blame "video games" for the violence in the world. *LMAO big time* "Make maps not war" is my moto.

But once the maps are made the war is on. Ain't it fun !!

I've read this entire thread several times now. And in almost each and every single post everyone has agreed with everyone about something, and disagreed with everyone about something else. Except for the majority of opinions that Packleader is an asphole.

*don't poke your finger into it - the snake bites*

Yet, the ONE thing we all seem to be trying to express, in all our strange and wonderous ways, is that we care sincerely about an explective 9 year old game.

And that ain't copulating bovine excrement !!

I will explain this more later, but one guy came in the server,with 2 names, and 2 ips, and then started to crash the server, he was
LoggedIPs[455]=,Player23,80.126.166.236,??????????
LoggedIPs[456]=,Player25,66.90.211.48,??????????

He was coming under two names, and then switching his ip, and coming in really fast under player names, I mean the names were switching in a matter of one second time frames, and then the server would crash, then he would come in again under a name Cleitc gunCW.. and also the name test, and then Do it again, the kickban would ban both ips.

As previously stated, its not possible that he 'changed IPs' mid-game. If I recall correctly, and there are certainly people here who can correct me if I'm wrong, ktban, edm, old uteam and a handful of others would fail to correctly establish the IP if two players joined at the exact same time. This could explain why you couldn't get an accurate address for him.

Just clarifying, since you mentioned it - that issue with EDM depends on the admin's setup. EDM5 was designed to piggy-back Nephthys with IP acquisition (if the admin sets it up that way) so that the IP's would be accurate all of the time. If EDM is set up to not use Nephthys then yes, what you described is correct - multiple connections at the same time can lead to false results (as is the case with any other 'sockets' parser).

Age does not tell much. Things like computing / programming skills is something you can learn at very low age, if you have the interest and intelligence. The only thing that comes with age is general life experience, but this of cource differe widely from person to person. Judging people just by age is not a very smart thing to do.

In general, I agree. But you cannot deny that there are times when a person's age becomes painfully obvious! A lot of times I like to distinguish between physical age and mental age, simply because there are clearly instances when the "older" person is truly the child.

I've been playing this game since '99 (played UT first).  I've been in Klingon for probably 4 or 5 years (maybe more)...Packleader isn't a bad guy if your on his good side.  No he is not the leader anymore he stepped down...still unclear why, but still in the clan.  Dante is the leader now.  I won't dismiss the DoS attacks either...I've done them.  But they tend to aim towards dumbasses like Jackson who tends to ban you for going afk for a minute or just not talking.  I can name one attack right off the bat that Nephthys can't defend against...unless it had Super AI.  It involves files (hint).  You can't forget Father Tim either.  If you have ever seen his website you'll see that he's notorious amongst many games and certain progams (ex. Teamspeak) for creating "Test" programs, DoS programs, etc.  And I remember his short stay in Unreal, you said one thing bad about him he would attack you, or regardless try to attack you anyways, but he really was just a loner in my opinion.

Blow me. If I pay for a server and want to ban you for breathing, I will do so.

Your obviously upset with the fact you were molested by your uncle when you were five.  I never said he payed for the server, in fact the last thing Jackson would ever do is pay for one.

News flash on DoS attacks:  You'd be suprised how many people not in Klingon have made consoles with a built in DoS feature (many of them we all know).

Stastically speaking, between 99-100% of teenagers will try weed or alcohol before the age of 17. So hey, that makes it ok.

Also, 90% of statistics are made up on the spot, even this one, but the number has to be somewhere really close.

I can name one attack right off the bat that Nephthys can't defend against...unless it had Super AI.  It involves files (hint)..

Go ahead and elaborate, because honestly I would love to see this.

Regardless of which it's not something I would tell anyone not in Klingon about.  You want to elaborate, learn uscript.

I won't escalate this into a flame war, but...

Blow me. If I pay for a server and want to ban you for breathing, I will do so.

Your obviously upset with the fact you were molested by your uncle when you were five. I never said he payed for the server, in fact the last thing Jackson would ever do is pay for one.

Ignoring your immature comment and addressing the issue: It doesn't matter if he paid for it, you missed the point. It's HIS not YOURS, and he is entitled to do as he pleases with it.

Also, 90% of statistics are made up on the spot, even this one, but the number has to be somewhere really close.

I heard it on the radio the other day, and I guess I believe it. Remember high school?

Regardless of which it's not something I would tell anyone not in Klingon about. You want to elaborate, learn uscript.

That's fine. The fact of the matter is, there does exist an exploit in unreal's file packaging system.

And
A) It is not something you would access in uscript
B) It would not run against the server remotely

lol this entire thread is one big joke with the exeption of hyper and busters posts... Like pcube did say in his reply.. dante exploited pcubes xcoop using xconsole (both made by pcube) This is all a setup by pcube as a joke before he releases 1.7 of xcoop that has all essential security features.

Hey, don't be ignorant! I had no intention of setting any of this up; ServerRestartGame() is just a function that I forgot to comment out of the gametype.

Well it's very tempting to lock this thread. However it seems alot are talking who normally wouldn't. I do think though that some of the comments are indeed a bit "immature". I've no real interest in commenting anymore as those who get it "get it" and those who don't never will. The flaming needs to stop though.

Hey, don't be ignorant! I had no intention of setting any of this up; ServerRestartGame() is just a function that I forgot to comment out of the gametype.

yeah, I take that back. This is all Shivaxi's fault because he started the thread in the first place. I do realize that you had no intention of this thread starting, but its still pretty damn funny that it turned out this way

(besides I know your getting a good kick out of it)

Ignoring your immature comment and addressing the issue: It doesn't matter if he paid for it, you missed the point. It's HIS not YOURS, and he is entitled to do as he pleases with it.

True, but that is not the way I take things in the game, I prefer my bans to be justified, especially when the |=ucker relaunches my core.u (good thing I keep a backup).

Also, 90% of statistics are made up on the spot, even this one, but the number has to be somewhere really close.

I heard it on the radio the other day, and I guess I believe it. Remember high school?

Yea I do remember high school, I'm still in it.

Regardless of which it's not something I would tell anyone not in Klingon about.  You want to elaborate, learn uscript.

That's fine. The fact of the matter is, there does exist an exploit in unreal's file packaging system.

And
A) It is not something you would access in uscript
B) It would not run against the server remotely

Yes, but not the same bug I am talking about.

See, now if you cared about the game you'd feel obliged to explain that particular flaw to Smirftsch - though he might already have fixed it...

so this is personal?
the premise for the the reason dante brought down the server could have been completely independent of his performance in other aspects of his life.
dante may have brought down the function of your server but certainly dante doesn't need other aspects of his life discussed unless you are dante or dante approves your discussion (especially in a forum like this).
That is why I didn't say my analysis of dante was certain or fact!
now I assume the attack was not personal I can justify it by saying that the server you run is not you it is just a tool and even if it were a personal attack against you dante is still just grasping at straws when it comes to YOU.
You can do what ever you want with your tool.
the ultimate attack against you would be on your intellect to break you down mentally. IMHO if dante did just that and broke you mentally by attacking your tool then he is indeed more an ally than an enemy because (hopefully) you see that YOU are not your server but what others think you are and guess what you can change that by knowing who you are.
l8r

I know for a fact that the attack was personal...dante hates my guts...

im not completely sure why but i know he thinks im a complete racist bastard against Jews and stuff...just because i helped work on a map of my friends that he named Joovision and because i typed Uber Joo one time in a conversation...not meaning Jew at all...the words just sound cool together in my opinion...

i actually am Jewish technically because if u look at the line as to how its passed down, its passed down by the mother...and my mom's mom was Jewish...and every time i tell him that he sais "yeah right u f**kin' jew hater"

So i dont really know what the hell his problem is...he just decided to be an a**hole that day to me and decided to stik with it.

I don't know how to say this exactly as I don't usually get things correct on the first attempt
IMHO:
language is a tool easily corrupted by internalization.
everyone internalizes everything whether its man made or natural as part of a mental process of survival.
it doesn't matter what you say to whom as it usually gets mis-interpreted anyways.
sometimes objective reality is expressed while at the same time the subjective reality is understood hence 'unreal or real'.
a rose by any other name is still a rose?
a thread by another name is still the same thread?
I was tempted to change the word 'fewer' in my alternate thread as maybe it would be interpreted as EDIT:spelling 'fuehrer' by these same 'intellectuals' that may have read the post.
even if it were interpreted that way big deal.
so however one internalizes what is captured by sensory organs isn't really about you but more about them.
EDIT: 'i expect flames for posting this but I will roll the dice anyways.
I first tried (google define:uber joo) link : http://www.google.com/sorry/?continue=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Ddefine%253Auber%2Bjoo%26btnG%3DSearch
but this one seemed more appealing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet#Terminology_and_Common_misspellings '
l8r

Found this in the wiki link u posted: (Joo takes the place of "you")

so there ...i'll have to show that to Dante lol

Found this in the wiki link u posted: (Joo takes the place of "you")

so there ...i'll have to show that to Dante lol  :D

Don't tell me you didn't know that...