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The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

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Leo T_C_K
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Okay the first discovery and this is basically copy of the same post that I was posting before it logged me out during those attacks on the forum here.

JackHonda says the May 07 Krall Elite skin is slightly different to the
February beta (engine 99).
Dark spots on orange triangles to the left of the head are slightly wider
in the May07 version.
And I indeed confirmed that is the case. I wonder why, were those for
masking?
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Leo T_C_K
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Again, these are mostly my old insights trying to catch up for the missing time....

About skybase... I said (I suppose the troopers having different weapons was described by the strategy guides before though) after watching private footage.
love the variety in skaarj trooper weapons really. I don't love the church HOMs though LOL


It also seems like at one point the secret (could) have been opened by destroying/triggering the cross on the church but I suppose CROSS DESTRUCTION = BAD and the censors would have their field day....

SkaarjSnipers. That seems to be the only trooper class that didn't get their weapon reset back to default on those maps, for obvious reasons of people hating instant hit enemies. I remember how delacroix was seething about asmd troopers in unreal psx etc. Except that one is used even in skybase here and on release rtnp there was at least one in glathriel2 that used asmd.

Another thing is that I remembered some things about the beta I played and there are some really odd things to consider comparing to this version which need explanation/answers from the developers to say the least.

As for skytown/skybase maybe having the cross destructible for at least something...I said
Yea well its possible one of the versions had it that way. I mean remember Toxic, how you have to shoot a damn bird to open a secret but it was replaced by a button in a later/rtnp version?

gamesharder or maybe jackhonda pointed to the soledad cross thing which I reacted with:

But the soledad thing is not the point of destruction of a cross but burning the nali to death instead.

But yea its just clear that they reserved soledad instead for a level pack or something like that later on but it never came. Since acording to David Kelvin, (aka Kevlar, aka Nivlek) they didn't give them the crypt maps to use and only gave them later revisions of the other maps only, as in it was Epic's call. But David worked briefly also on the original Unreal, but his machine didn't handle the editor well so he quit the team at the time, otherwise he would have made maps already for the original Unreal. Instead he ended up making for rtnp and wheel of time later on. With the wheel of time ones being more original arguably than what he did for Unreal as he tried to stay close to the themes of existing Unreal maps.

But yea what I remembered and that's the weird thing. Is that in the map that could have been the early Mountain Fortress, that savegame(the savegame was NOT from us btw it either came with the beta or was saved by that other guy who he had the computer from) had only player have weapons up to GESBioRifle and not further. I dunno if I ever mentioned it before but I find that weird. Since if it was instead of skybase which was my original theory, then he would have had a rifle at least. Its possible to miss the Minigun, but missing the Rifle is way less likely. And I don't remember having the rifle. I knew the Rifle from Botmatch though but that's the only place. I never got to use it in SP in that version (but remember I only played up to Chizra and then that mountain fortress or whatever). Its also possible that Mountain Fottress was Amethyst originally and they slotted that before skytown still in that version. That they renamed Amethyst and that Cliff modified it just like he modified dmtwilight from Jeremy for example. And that some of the stuff then became base for DmElsinore. That seems to make the most sense to me. I mean why else would Eric Reuter have the March version still in 2008? By looking at the level filenames he thought none of his stuff is there anymore but maybe he was wrong. Because he might not have remembered the renaming of Amethyst. And Cliff took over, plus he and cliff had some arguments at the time(nothing too serious but still) and even more so with Mark Rein, those two hated each other like mad, but he left the main team to go start his "fusion creative design" with john w. anderson instead and focus on their level pack that was meant to be out later with the OEM version (the Intel OEM version, who knows where it is, all leads left me nowhere, nobody had it anymore even the people I contacted from Intel or who used to work there, except some people remembered it like Nigel Kent).

And obviously Eric's own memory is not 100 percent either. *skips some politics about cutting levels and drama that reportedly erupted over at Epic at the time*

And Eric had none of his full levels in anymore after all, except obviously some reused brushes. And the FCR level pack didn't end up released unless it was some limited sale with the Intel product.

Its really a mess, if you get into it. Also Eric claimed that Cliff complained many times that something became too complicated and they need to simplify the level and that was one of the arguments he had. Its funny that the same thing happened with Jeremy as well, even though Jeremy was brought in again to replace some of Eric's levels like skytown and other skycity themed levels.
But Eric and Jeremy both shared in common that they sometimes overcompilcated their levels (look at dmreactor and twillight from the ut beta lol). And then Jeremy left just like Eric but months later lol.


bluff:
Interesting, I mean not many differences on itself, there's an extra corpse, the weaponpowerup is gone and indeed less plants to mask holes and the skaarj have different weapons at least two of them, the biorifle one plus the other one also doesn't have dp and the razorjack one where the powerup is now.

dasa:
Apart from the coop passages not being there, there's not much different is there? I mean I noticed of course the gunners having eightballs instead of dps and I think there might be more ammo at places and there was that corpse hung over the cistern which I think is not there in the released version?

oh yea and the titan health I mean he went down sooo fast lol. I mean even with that health he wouldnt go down so fast in regular Unreal i think (it was 1200 versus 1400?) but i supose the flakcannon was stronger and the krall shots helped or something.
>Pretty much, yeah.
>No corpse in the water either in the final.
>A little bit disappointed by these Bluff-Dasa maps not being different in
>this, but whatever.

But it has the same health on veloraend, the "99" one is the one that is overpowered. Unless it has even more protection of damage against exploded damage or something...don't forget the LD can change that too lol.

Weird that they changed the titan in cellars and then back. I suppose someone complained so they made it easy and then when they added the coop passage they decided there is now more room to go around so they changed the health back again.

Some misc details from GH:
>Nono, just the cistern one.
>
>Also the titan on cellars:
>99 beta: 1800 HP
>May beta: 1200 HP
>Release: 1800 HP
>
>I was also surprised how fast I killed it with flak. I play on Hard, the
>Trench ones were easy as well.
>
>Velora titan:
>99 beta: 5000 HP
>May beta: 3000 HP
>Release: 3000 HP
>
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Leo T_C_K
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

And now for the final reveal. The authenticity of the beta has been thrown into question. Because of the past and because of the person who also purchased cds from the seller claiming explicitly that he has seen no betas being sold by that guy only art cds. Developers have been asked about details and answers are expected, however Inoxx previously thought that Solaris was either by Pancho (disproven by him) or by Jeremy (he has not answered), before this beta was recovered.
Here's what is on the table so far: The masked Krall Elite skin (previously claimed wrong by yrex to be identical, its not).
The extra Nali on Sunspire being copied from the fireplace, event included. This makes no sense and was previously not done by Epic like this.
The fact it can't be played from start to finish even though the "99" beta can be.
The fact that the 200 source code (from May 20th, again proving that May 17th initial version is before version 200 and can be technically called "pre-release") has missing graphics for the upgraded old dp projectile, just like this beta. But the march unreali has it and there's no reason why it would be removed from the source at this point yet....AND I can confirm that the beta I played back then had it alright.
The fact that SkaarjBot is referenced by an IsA call within the code while this class doesn't exist.
Many bsp bugs might be because the t3d was shuffled around to make it all look legit, as I pointed out the main thing about the nwfalcon fake was the MAPS unlike everything else, that they had the new actors put last. Of course you can shuffle this by manually editing the t3d but you're riscing more bsp unstability...which seemed to have happened.
If I didn't make it clear it might have been compiled from 200 source code, the commented out code put back, stuff put back from March UnrealI for good measure (after all there was a plan to make a frankenbuild mod by certain now-gone community members and I happen to know this, including recompile from source code exactly as I'm saying)
Other weird map errors and inconsistencies. One thing I didn't mention was that I played DmAriza on that old beta quite a lot. There were weaponpowerups already. In this version they are not there and I find that very very jarring.
The reason I am coming out with this before its confirmed is because I feel disrespected and put down. And I am not having it.
I am not claiming that this is 100 percent confirmed fake because it is not yet. The fact that money transaction was involved and it was held by ransom by the guy who purchased the "last art cd" and reportedly the beta has held this for ransom of 500 US dollars. I mean really...if the transaction truly took place then someone was seriously duped and overcharged. And its wrong. Just plain wrong to do it this way. I wanted to negotiate and investigate but no of course not, random hotheads were first.

Remember, even art paintings and other stuff were previously faked and even experts were fooled for decades or even half century in some cases.
My hand is being forced. If I had been more respected...things would have turned out differently and I would have waited. Now we have to wait for the words of the developers.

And yes I know about QueenEnd and stuff. But that's one of the things that was seen precisely on screenshots and even then some things are just damn odd, plus also description by strategy guide. Just like nwfalcon beta, this could have been made by approximation/best guess of how some maps could have evolved in the time between versions. And there's a good guess because of the damn strategy guides and how they've been written to extent. Also an interactive guide based on old versions that was found eventually too.
Basically there's hardly stuff new under the sun and I find it weird that a version two weeks before release would have this amount of issues and weird things in it too.

Btw if you are going to present about the version number thing...don't bother.
As in package version. That can be changed in the source plus we have the original pre-release DmVilla2 that was released separately as the gw press bonus, the map itself being part of the "test master" that the gw press guide was based on. Though it was more like mix of versions/details that slipped in sometimes. Because the gw press guide in particular was always over-written with new insights, it was continuous writing effort each time Unreal changed. That's what I got personally told and you need to keep this in mind because someone like roninmastafx would claim stuff like it was release candidate # that looked exactly like that. Schizo ramblings in other words. Confirmed untrue by tim's log and similar files too.

And all this I found out without actually right now having access to a windows machine to play/try the build myself. Well....my analysis is here, the authenticity of this is in the water for now.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Oh also...that K_vision difference. Its just "unused patterns" being restored to play in the right order, the music itself is not ANY DIFFERENT.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Also I'll say it in advance but I hope Cliff will be shown screenshots, not just a question about authorship. Because apart from recreating that screenshot, the rest of the map feels unusually shoddy for Cliff, parts of geometry sticking out and that weirdly textured tunnel that might have been modified dmelsinore geometry. Its not what usually happens with Cliff.

EDIT: It all depends how you look at the evidence, if scientificaly or not. But so far everyone seems to get upset at the MERE suggestion that this beta might be fake now. That's not giving me good impressions. And I now hear similar arguments that I and someone else had thrown back at me. You can't argue like that.

edit2 : Remember how nwfalcon said that if he wanted the beta not to be found out to be fake it would be different? So the initial plan was that, to make it clear over time and perhaps destroying few people reputation in the process was a bonus.
Now...I get treated like trash lately..told someone like me doesn't deserve crowdfunding even though it would keep me afloat in a new situation that is COMPLETELY different from my previous one. No, crowdfunding wouldn't just buy me a month. But I never claimed or wanted to claim to want to receive money for beta versions. The donations were to keep me alive and afloat and to work on my projects, not about any sharing of beta or whatever! I was against that notion and despite that it was written as if that was the case on that ko-fi page which I did not create and couldn't.
EDIT3: Basically, what I am getting at is while this fraud and extraction for money over this beta was going on, I was in a very very bad situation and I get told I am trash by the community and cancelled. I don't think that is any bit fair and it shows...it shows what people care about here...that some possibly fake beta is valuable more than my life. Because I am a scum that is barely tolerated, am I right?

This is despicable. I am disgusted.
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Leo T_C_K
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Okay...its basically without response except an opinion of a person not involved directly, but well...
it was implied to me that they might find this a controversial topic and might want to avoid it altogether. Normally though they are all happy to answer questions...which points to direction that this is a fake. So...acording to this person it should be treated as fake...unless someone of the developers replies directly and says its real.
End of story. Sorry to say this.
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Leo T_C_K
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Remember kids, when something is too good to be true, it usually isn't.
For example...this beta having the same exact number of maps as something previously shown in a magazine.
Compare it to the 221 ut beta. A similar beta was reviewed and thought to be about to be released, in an australian magazine. It was also 221 beta but a different revision with some different/older maps.
It was reviewed by Dan whatever his name was...but then it turned out there was a leak back then of a beta that was slightly newer and worked on further. And it was included on some cd compilations. So...yea, it wasn't the exact same thing despite everything and its more likely that a beta once used for a trailer will pop up than a beta given to magazines...as a general rule. We never got the same exact thing and I believe this thing pretended to be.
After all the side lifts in queenend were described by strategy guides and even that spanish language interactive guide I think.

Look Gamesharder I appreciate you collecting all those screenshots and everything, but yea...it does also give power to people who make hoaxes. And this time they had years to prepare. Part of it is true, like there was genuine purchase of art cd etc. But then someone to have balls to use this to create diversion and window to slip a fake beta...that's really something.
And you are just painfuly blind and wilfully stupid if you want to believe that there is only 15 percent chance of this being fake.
Delacroix doesn't want to believe it just like he initially didn't want to believe the nwfalcon beta being fake, without saying it in public of course. But unlike you gamesharder, he is generally not afraid to stand up for something, you let things happen instead, when you're confronted with bullying you are afraid of becomin the next target so you stay silent. He doesn't, but he stays silent on other issues until things are resolved.
However the fact that the beta was passworded like that, it might have simply be taken from source code leftovers AND also its not that hard to write such rather random generation and as Delacroix showed with his friend who cracked it, the code corresponds to any username you give it, like you know this is kind of the basis of keygens etc too in the "cracking community".
I mean those kind of algorithms are known. It also doesn't mean that Delacroix had anything to do with it and that it was strange that this was made.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by AlCapowned »

Well, that's unfortunate. I did find the stone titan particularly suspicious since the real skin already existed. I'm glad you seem to have learned a lesson from the previous fake, and I guess now I've learned mine. I didn't want to miss another chance like I did by not getting that Unreal 2 dev a subscription to 3ds Max, but I guess I took the wrong thing away from that.

However, I take issue with this from you:
I wanted to negotiate and investigate but no of course not, random hotheads were first.
Given that you told me this:
But I'd rather say pay part of the price *just* for the unreal beta and leave the rest for the public to fund as he mentioned he wanted to start crowdfunding. So yea...
Then when I said I could cover it, you said:
OK in that case I suggest you talk to gamesharder, I mean he's willing to (even though that would be all savings he has or something) to contribute at most about 200 dollars himself, but to hungarian money that is a lot, different economy too...

But try to talk with him and coordinate.
The only reason I got involved was because you told me, so don't act like I butted in and interrupted whatever method you were planning on employing. You gave me the go ahead to paying the money and voiced zero objections.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

AlCapowned wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 3:36 pm Well, that's unfortunate. I did find the stone titan particularly suspicious since the real skin already existed. I'm glad you seem to have learned a lesson from the previous fake, and I guess now I've learned mine. I didn't want to miss another chance like I did by not getting that Unreal 2 dev a subscription to 3ds Max, but I guess I took the wrong thing away from that.

However, I take issue with this from you:
I wanted to negotiate and investigate but no of course not, random hotheads were first.
Given that you told me this:
But I'd rather say pay part of the price *just* for the unreal beta and leave the rest for the public to fund as he mentioned he wanted to start crowdfunding. So yea...
Then when I said I could cover it, you said:
OK in that case I suggest you talk to gamesharder, I mean he's willing to (even though that would be all savings he has or something) to contribute at most about 200 dollars himself, but to hungarian money that is a lot, different economy too...

But try to talk with him and coordinate.
The only reason I got involved was because you told me, so don't act like I butted in and interrupted whatever method you were planning on employing. You gave me the go ahead to paying the money and voiced zero objections.
No, okay well I did say what you quoted however its taken out of the context. And I only said so after you seemed to have decided to pay anyways, not before. Because you were willing to pay the whole amount which i assumed meant that he would release also those not related to Unreal CDs, which didn't end up happening so the 500 was still only for Unreal stuff and that's what I didn't understand.
However I did warn gamesharder previously that i wasn't convinced of dmsolaris, but I suppose it just all went so fast. What I'm trying to say is that I would still wait. You seemed to have decided to pay already.

If I was still in direct talks with faiyadg it would have went differently, let's say it that way. I would have still tried to negotiate more.

But I did mention the crowdfunding, that was his oriinal plan and I actually wanted to let that happen but then gamesharder went like maybe he can pay for it, when he got to know, he panicked and I thought he might speak with you, but I also didn't expect you to pay this right away.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

AlCapowned wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 3:36 pm Well, that's unfortunate. I did find the stone titan particularly suspicious since the real skin already existed. I'm glad you seem to have learned a lesson from the previous fake, and I guess now I've learned mine. I didn't want to miss another chance like I did by not getting that Unreal 2 dev a subscription to 3ds Max, but I guess I took the wrong thing away from that.

However, I take issue with this from you:
I wanted to negotiate and investigate but no of course not, random hotheads were first.
Given that you told me this:
But I'd rather say pay part of the price *just* for the unreal beta and leave the rest for the public to fund as he mentioned he wanted to start crowdfunding. So yea...
Then when I said I could cover it, you said:
OK in that case I suggest you talk to gamesharder, I mean he's willing to (even though that would be all savings he has or something) to contribute at most about 200 dollars himself, but to hungarian money that is a lot, different economy too...

But try to talk with him and coordinate.
The only reason I got involved was because you told me, so don't act like I butted in and interrupted whatever method you were planning on employing. You gave me the go ahead to paying the money and voiced zero objections.
Okay I couldn't write my response on time because zeur was nagging me and in a minute or so he will again want to "sit here" so I really don't have time to put effort into my responses now.

But yea I said "coordinate"..however it felt like gamesharder was being too passive, didn't push back enough.

I tried to offer a trade at first...I also thought about a second possible trade but you already posted the tech demo 2000 guy/ps2 models, that was the second thing I wanted to suggest to trade, but then again he wasn't interested in Unreal stuff or at least pretended to.

Its all weird.. I mean okay I admit I even started to think when talking to Delacroix that you might have pulled a prank or want my reputation destroyed because you hate me. As in maybe no transaction took place, but then I calmed down and thought about it. However snappy attitudes/things often trigger this kind of response in me.

Its also NOT YOUR FAULT about that damn 3dsmax stuff. That guy was a developer and it seems he said that to deter us because he didn't want to do it in the first place, he wasn't being serious or thought that someone might be so obsessive over old content like this.

But yea next time we shouldn't trust pen marked cds when it doesn't come out of the developer directly. That's for sure.

And this went via two people before...reportedly.

That Titan thing was indeed weird especially because the strategy guide version didn't have it. And also....I'd swear there was a screenshot showing the branch was way removed from the map by that point....

maybe that mover freakout is especially because someone tried to play with the mover code to introduce back the lighting bugs etc....
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Victor Delacroix »

Leo T_C_K wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 9:04 pmI mean okay I admit I even started to think when talking to Delacroix that you might have pulled a prank or want my reputation destroyed because you hate me. As in maybe no transaction took place, but then I calmed down and thought about it.
The way you said that is funny... as if I suggested that AlCa might've pulled a prank on you, when in fact I said the exact opposite.
Leo T_C_K wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 9:04 pmBut yea next time we shouldn't trust pen marked cds when it doesn't come out of the developer directly. That's for sure.
Plenty game prototypes have shown up on eBay, on pen-marked CDs and not necessarily straight from devs. Nobody questioned their authenticity.

I am still not convinced this is fake. Sounds like you're grasping at straws.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Victor Delacroix wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:12 am
Leo T_C_K wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 9:04 pmI mean okay I admit I even started to think when talking to Delacroix that you might have pulled a prank or want my reputation destroyed because you hate me. As in maybe no transaction took place, but then I calmed down and thought about it.
The way you said that is funny... as if I suggested that AlCa might've pulled a prank on you, when in fact I said the exact opposite.
Leo T_C_K wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 9:04 pmBut yea next time we shouldn't trust pen marked cds when it doesn't come out of the developer directly. That's for sure.
Plenty game prototypes have shown up on eBay, on pen-marked CDs and not necessarily straight from devs. Nobody questioned their authenticity.

I am still not convinced this is fake. Sounds like you're grasping at straws.
I said "I admit i even started to think"...while talking to you, yes. You then accused me of paranoia which at first only increased my fear. But nonetheless during the nwfalcon stuff you did suspect and accuse alcapowned at some point yourself.

So its BS what you're saying now. I did not accuse you now of accusing alcapowned, but funnily enough you did in the past. In fact i feared that I might start getting accused once its clear that this is fake, too.

I am not grasping at straws. You are.

And so is GamesHarder by telling me the opposite. I am telling you, the burden of proof is the other way now.
Especially given that there was a fake before and AN attempt at fake, plus all those people that are around. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a joint effort, in fact it looks like one.

Again, any reasonable arguments are flying out of the window, you told me/threatened me that you will get angry again with me. That is not going to convince me. It makes you look like you WANT it to be true, just like you INITIALLY wanted the nwfalcon beta to be true and even pushed me in the conflict against alcapowned. Don't say that isn't true because it is. You turned around 180 degrees at an instant. Even though again my arguments were reasonable on itself and lead to more research. Like finding out about the maps being messed with. Though that revelation how I exactly found out made it possible for next time for those people to watch out better. And this time the intention might be to get it not proven that this is fake. I keep warning you and you keep ignoring me.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Obviously people just wanna see in my words what they want to see. I wanted to be more cautious, I pointed out from the start the weird texturing etc at solaris at the places not seen on the only public screenshot. I mentioned all this plus more. But obviously it was ignored/not communicated via gamesharder further to alca or something. I wanted them to work it out. But he was already cheated before that because the 500 was only for the Unreal stuff which was not even implied. Those other cds he had were properly marked btw, but not the Unreal Beta CD and again I have to say this again but the guy who uploaded the art cds before to redump.org himself said that he only saw more art cd stuff related to Unreal from the slovakian seller and NOT Unreal Beta. Isn't that a fucking deadgiveaway?

That something is wrong? I am trying to get back my access there because I forgot the password in the middle of everything and moving around. But I am not getting a forgotten password link now.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by AlCapowned »

I do think the skaarjbot reference is pretty suspicious. I forget how IsA works, can that be compiled normally if the compiler can’t find what it’s referring to?

Also, assuming the username/password system was ripped from another build’s source, would that mean the set generated by Delacroix’s friend would also work for the original build? Though I guess that would be a moot point if that set also worked for a build that didn’t have its full source included.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Victor Delacroix »

Skaarjbot reference means nothing. It may be a still-dummy class. People like Leo tend to forget a complete dummy class in UT222 for the CommandControl gametype. Or in this particular Unreal build, once you improve the DP with the powerups, the projectiles for many stages of the weapon's development are invisible.

It must've been a part of Epic's workflow. Implement a dummy for now, fill in later.

EDIT: On top of that, Unreal v200 (and perhaps some slightly earlier) builds can read incomplete stuff, dummying stuff out on the fly. Something further builds went away from (that came back in the 227 patch for the maps at least).

This is a build that's slightly earlier than 200 and may have certain characteristics repeating with that ver.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Victor Delacroix wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:44 pm Skaarjbot reference means nothing. It may be a still-dummy class. People like Leo tend to forget a complete dummy class in UT222 for the CommandControl gametype. Or in this particular Unreal build, once you improve the DP with the powerups, the projectiles for many stages of the weapon's development are invisible.

It must've been a part of Epic's workflow. Implement a dummy for now, fill in later.

EDIT: On top of that, Unreal v200 (and perhaps some slightly earlier) builds can read incomplete stuff, dummying stuff out on the fly. Something further builds went away from (that came back in the 227 patch for the maps at least).

This is a build that's slightly earlier than 200 and may have certain characteristics repeating with that ver.
There is no skaarjbot dummy class here at all. Unlike the UT betas with commandcontrol. Don't tell me I forget something. Besides I examined thoroughly many other unrealscript classes and it shows evidence of being inserted later, the beta ones that 200 didn't contain. It has all the signs of a dressed up frankednbuild that used partially the march unreali extracted source.

You're talking complete garbage/nonsense now. You don't know how this stuff works so please stay silent on the matter.

besides that Ebay argument is also wrong because nobody else but faiyadg claimed this beta was sold on ebay. That other guy who I verified with, only saw the art cds but at first I dismissed it, now in full context of course it clicked.

We saw no proof of this actually being sold on EBay. Only the art CD.

The IsA stuff will compile however but there's no reason for the reference to be here already, unless it was really in preperation but still really really strange.
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Victor Delacroix
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Victor Delacroix »

OK, if I am talking garbage according to you, I'm withdrawing from this conversation. And if you can't accept people suggesting you might've forgotten something...

It was an error on my part to resume contact. Luckily that error is easy to fix.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Victor Delacroix wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:43 pm OK, if I am talking garbage according to you, I'm withdrawing from this conversation. And if you can't accept people suggesting you might've forgotten something...

It was an error on my part to resume contact. Luckily that error is easy to fix.
You're bringing nothing but drama to this conversation. I haven't forgotten that, that's why I take issue with it because its not true. There was not a single logical argument from you here that was factual, most of everything you said is because of your misunderstanding. You don't have the full information and you have not disproven anything I said. You are doing what I did during the nwfalcon argument but worse. I did tell you a while ago already that you have mistaken assumptions and you are confusing what the compiler is confusing and what the unrealed might forgive.

Either way, both doesn't apply here. It just doesn't. The missing DP stuff is exactly my argument why this is fake, because the 200 source code doesn't have those graphics. You cannot read what I am saying correctly/understand it, you are assuming and having a double standard and worst of all this has been incresingly happening to you, between you and me quite a lot. But as you can see, the issue is not with me because other people can still understand what I am talking about for the most part.

Look the 200 source code doesn't have those graphics, therefore indeed even if they were referenced they become null when compiled. Minigunsentry is identical to the march partially extracted version(the defaultprops couldn't be preserved as we didn't have the build) plus default properties probably
copied from the "99" february version.
The other code also seems to be a merger. BotInfo is new but it might have been just copied and adjusted, hence why SkaarjBot class is referenced. Whoever did this probably didn't notice AND THEN started changing the null references in defaultproperties to make it look legit. Like indeed it had empty references so it was changed to malethree but then he forgot to go back and change it in the code so there would be no SkaarjBot reference. And indeed this far into developement it makes nosense why the skaarjbot is missing. It wasn't there in the version i played back in 1998 but that was reportedly older version and how come it had weaponpowerups in DM like DmAriza (I remember this clearly and I even held onto those memories when I had memory loss or quickly recovered them because of how dear it was to me, do you understand? I also wanted this to be true and that's why I overlooked some details before just like the Ebay stuff, you completely ignore all this...you DO NOT FOLLOW COMMON SENSE)
And some stuff like some fixes seem to be even taken/inspired from oldunreal's 227 strangely enough. It all seems to me mashed together.


You also keep switching between basically fighting me and fighting alongside me and at a higher rate than usual, just because one thing is something that you are convinced about, etc. And it is really tiring. And if I am the only one who has the guts to tell you this so be it. You were also not being constructive critical back then on IRC about my UPSX project. It was much more nastier and if you don't recognize that something is wrong with you because even you called it "bitching" you gave it a title. But you act like its just my problem. Why are you so negative to me when it comes to Unreal stuff while with other things you were being supportive? What is really your problem? (I think whatever drugs you might be on might make this part of you worse because you weren't quite like this before even though you might not have been liked by majority of people much)

You want this to be REAL so bad because you invested time into it like making it part of your FISSION pack. That is why you are so defensive and you went out of your way to have it cracked so fast.

But you have no clue. And no feeling for this. Or...really for my own sake. You're just angry and that's it, you can't stand losing an argument like this.
You are grasping at straws with your arguments because of this exact reason. When similar arguments were made towards the nwfalcon beta authenticity I was the one firing them in public, not you, but I remember it was similar and you were the one arguing (with me but out of the sight of public) that it might be real or maybe partially real later. (there's of course still not 100 percent way we can't know if it wasn't based on a real 98 codedrop that was once leaked in the warez circles, as I was told by someone who was active around that time on EFnet, that there was much more, even stuff that didn't have official warez releases on bbs etc, just shared privately between members)
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Victor Delacroix wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:43 pm It was an error on my part to resume contact. Luckily that error is easy to fix.
Also if nobody taught you that before. Something like that is not an "error".

Either way did I mention yet in this thread that the fireslithprojectile is all lower caps while it wasn't before? This is one of those things leading me to believe its been constructed together. And its inconsistent, like the import code for the flameball explosion thing was iirc (I can't look at it now atm but i did study it before) the same as the beta or march beta, while the 200 flameball actually has the correct texture afaik. But here its the old errored one...that makes no sense unless it was really copied/merged from the beta stuff like that.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Btw just for everybody's info, I already talked to Flak at Epic about this, hopefuly she could get me in talks with someone. The problem is, she is not allowed to discuss Unreal/Unreal Tournament in general now.

I dunno if this will get anywhere but I tried my best. However I want to see now effort of someone else to talk to Cliff or Myscha (for the Ariza issue, he might also remember dmsolaris so he can be shown the screenshots (not the ones from that angle that was shown in that magazine please as that could have been easily recreated, after all even gamesharder/yrex projects are living proof of that being a thing now or parts of nwfalcon's stuff previously).
You guys have often access to all kind of social media so...please do your part. Otherwise it *has* to be stayed pronounced as fake. End of story.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Victor Delacroix »

Geez, even when I promise myself to not engage with you, here I stand, provoked into putting you in your place.

You can't just unilaterally say that it has to be pronounced as fake. You've shed some doubts, AlCa apparently believes you, I don't, so until we have confirmation from someone that worked on the game that DmSolaris (the main thing that this build was targeted for, let's be honest) or whatever else herein is fake, at best we can claim "status unclear".

That's it.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Victor Delacroix wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 6:46 pm Geez, even when I promise myself to not engage with you, here I stand, provoked into putting you in your place.

You can't just unilaterally say that it has to be pronounced as fake. You've shed some doubts, AlCa apparently believes you, I don't, so until we have confirmation from someone that worked on the game that DmSolaris (the main thing that this build was targeted for, let's be honest) or whatever else herein is fake, at best we can claim "status unclear".

That's it.
Given the past how we were tricked with nwfalcon and new information that has surfaced it is completely justified that this beta can be presumed fake foremost. But fine, status unclear is better than gamesharder claiming the opposite stance should be taken.

And btw, don't try to put me "into place". As you can see, things can be civil.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Victor Delacroix wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 6:46 pm Geez, even when I promise myself to not engage with you, here I stand, provoked into putting you in your place.

You can't just unilaterally say that it has to be pronounced as fake. You've shed some doubts, AlCa apparently believes you, I don't, so until we have confirmation from someone that worked on the game that DmSolaris (the main thing that this build was targeted for, let's be honest) or whatever else herein is fake, at best we can claim "status unclear".

That's it.
I had no clue beforehand this build was gonna have DmSolaris. Fayiadg didn't reveal the list of maps until the last moment just said there were different number of maps but it sounds suspicious why he wouldn't know exactly and why it took him so much time to look through it. I mean his appearance was more than a year before this, then he was hard to get hold of until he reappeared and first privately talked with me. I just don't get it because this guy was not in a situation like me presumably or anything like that. So why didn't he find time to inspect the cd again before making the images? It all stinks. So...that attitude of looking at it as fake with all those insights is correct. Why do you take authoritative stance if you haven't been involved basically? There was a huge wait and the money thing was also revealed very late...as in to hook us.
I only speculated there might have been dmsolaris..its like this guy played straight into it and into these threads popping up like dmsolaris search. It did not happen the other way around. There was no prior confirmation.
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by [kx]de_zeurkous »

Victor Delacroix wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 6:46 pm Geez, even when I promise myself to not engage with you, here I stand, provoked into putting you in your place.
Sorry, but that's entirely in your head, Plat. It's entirely in your
head.

---

To summarize me opinion on the matter: both the circumstances and the
content of the now-"recovered" beta are odd. But what *really* says a
lot is the fact that while w/ material discovered earlier, the contacted
original developers were raving all over it; while now, they're oddly
silent. Methinks meknows that fear. It's the fear, common among humans
these days, of making a bad public impression by actually denouncing
something as fake.

Either way, the only people who can verify the authenticity are the
original developers, and like mesaid, for now they're staying silent.

If and until we hear from them, we should be cautious.
--
Friggin' Machines!
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Re: The April - May beta (unknown build) detailed discussion

Post by AlCapowned »

You are doing what I did during the nwfalcon argument but worse.


You publicly went on for weeks, made excuses to explain away the mountain of evidence yrex found, ignored nwfalcon’s admission, and even when you finally came around, you said it could have been a legitimate build that was modified. Nothing Delacroix has said here compares.

Anyway, there’s so little of consequence in this build that it’s hardly worth arguing about either way.
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