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[227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

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rick54321
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[227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by rick54321 »

Hi! I just installed the new 227j patch and wanted to test if everything was still working. I've found only some small animation and texture bugs so far, nothing too serious. That is until I encountered somewhat serious bug: it looks like that semisolid brushes are now cutting level geometry, which means they cause zones, and worse: may cause some serious BSP cuts. One of my maps that had zero BSP cuts in 227i version is now invested of them after 227j rebuild.

Pillars in the image below are semisolid.


227i: Semisolid expected behaviour. 227j: Causing zones.
rick54321
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by rick54321 »

Bonus pic. This semisolid masked grate that you are supposed to see through now looks like this:

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rick54321
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by rick54321 »

Clearer demonstration:

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Leo T_C_K
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Well...what can I say? Maybe semisolid behavior was reverted back to the beta days when it could be cut by subtractive brushes but still didn't cause "void" for it to be inside. That was actually a major pain in the arse for the UPak developers when they were handed the few beta levels from Unreal by Epic to convert/use. Because it removed some detail and they didn't notice in time and if they converted the brushes to solid it could cause bsp problems.

But if this causes the filled up space inside and makes it identical to solids then that's wrong of course. I can't check now whether that's the case actually.
rick54321
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by rick54321 »

Hey, thanks for replying! Right now as a heavy semi-solid user this breaks everything and forces me to use former UnrealEd 2.1 for rebuilding.
Maybe a checkbox which toggles 227i/227j semi-solid behaviour if subtracting them is somehow needed?
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Leo T_C_K
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by Leo T_C_K »

You could try to get around it by making sure the order of the semi solid brush is set to last...
rick54321
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by rick54321 »

Ordered semi-solid brush to last. No effect.

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Leo T_C_K
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by Leo T_C_K »

I can't see your pictures for some reason on this end, yet ones posted by other people seem to appear.

It was just a suggestion, I didn't try it myself but that's really odd because it should have worked in theory.
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Neon_Knight
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by Neon_Knight »

FWIW the issue is now in the Github repo: https://github.com/OldUnreal/Unreal-testing/issues/201
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Neon_Knight
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by Neon_Knight »

Marco/Dots answer on the issue, for those who don't have access:
I did quite carefully compare behaviour with 226f version and 227j is closer to 226 behaviour, 227i map builder can hardly be compared with because it was set to skip BSP build step.
But for the sake of this issue I did add an BSP geometry build option to "Post build SemiSolids" which makes it fully add in semi solids into BSP as final step before light raytracing.
HOWEVER, if you even simply rebuild lighting after that, it will also rebuild zones which then again makes semi solids cut off zones, and that can't be avoided due to how zoning works.
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rick54321
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by rick54321 »

Added some comments in https://github.com/OldUnreal/Unreal-testing/issues/201. Not posting them here.

I can't see reason why this isn't properly fixable. If 226f semi-solid behaviour is correct, can there be a completely new decorative brush type that behaves just like 227i semi-solids?

Decorative brush as in:
- Can be easily added: Add special -> Decorative?
- Changeable: surface textures, pivots, scaling etc.
- Has brush-like lighting.
- Does not add to BSP geometry. No voiding/cutting.

Current decorative brush alternatives, that are movers and static meshes, are impractical for this as modifying them is difficult.

Like non-solid but with collision.
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Kajgue
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by Kajgue »

rick54321 wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:08 pm Added some comments in https://github.com/OldUnreal/Unreal-testing/issues/201. Not posting them here.

I can't see reason why this isn't properly fixable. If 226f semi-solid behaviour is correct, can there be a completely new decorative brush type that behaves just like 227i semi-solids?

Decorative brush as in:
- Can be easily added: Add special -> Decorative?
- Changeable: surface textures, pivots, scaling etc.
- Has brush-like lighting.
- Does not add to BSP geometry. No voiding/cutting.

Current decorative brush alternatives, that are movers and static meshes, are impractical for this as modifying them is difficult.

Like non-solid but with collision.
As I map in Blender, I import all of the 'visual' geometry as nonsolid sheet cluster brushes, and substitute the collisions with invisible static meshes and collision volumes. There are a few other steps to this procedure too, but as a result I can make the map as big as I want without needing to be concerned about potential BSP holes, I just need to mind the point/node limit.

The only real drawback to this method is that decals don't show up on anything.
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Leo T_C_K
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Or just keep 227i and keep using it for semi solids whatever....like people like me already has multiple unreal versions around for all kind of purposes and testing and playing old shit and what not.

If you know what you're doing you can also keep the same tree and just use different paths and edited config files, but pointing to common files. it saves space
rick54321
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by rick54321 »

Assuming that 226f semi-solid behavior is correct, I've been using semi-solids incorrectly all this time. I've used them mostly for anything decorative or complex, like pillars, machines, torch grates, trains etc. It was the key to have moderately complex maps with zero BSP cuts. Since semi-solids are now corrected to behave like on 226f, the BSP nightmare is back.

There must be a proper fix.

@Kajque
I've used non-solid brush collision trick, too, but it's just as impractical as movers and static meshes.

@Leo
I want to avoid using older editors for other reasons, like the mouse cursor jumping issue.
rick54321
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by rick54321 »

Anyway a proper fix without messing up semi-solids looks trivial to me:
- New brush flag: maybe "special-semi-solid"?
- Darker brown brush color. So it looks like a bit like semi-solid.
- Exclude "special-semi-solid" flag brushes from BSP builder, or move them to last. Like how non-solids work. I don't know how rebuilder works under the hood.
- (Optional) List it in Add special.
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Kajgue
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by Kajgue »

Not impractical, just requires a different way (and program) of mapping.
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rick54321
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by rick54321 »

Yes but that is the problem. I want to avoid using any tricks like invisible static meshes or custom editors. Keeping it simple.
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Leo T_C_K
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by Leo T_C_K »

Use the 227i only for rebuilding the geometry then? That might work for you. Because I don't think this will lead anywhere in practice.
rick54321
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Re: [227j] Semisolids are cutting level geometry and causing BSP cuts

Post by rick54321 »

Quotes from my solo conversation from https://github.com/OldUnreal/Unreal-testing/issues/201
Interestingly if you remove all ZoneInfos from the map, so that all semi-solids are in LevelInfo zone, they behave 227i way without causing cut-off zones.
So the fix can be simple as a new option in the Brush class. bNoCutZones?
By doing a closer inspection to the map where this issue originated from, it looks like that BSP cuts actually come from non-solid pillars. No BSP cuts on 227i so the BSP skip step may have affected that, too. Not saying that semi-solids may not cause BSP cuts, most likely they can.

Sorry for this inconvenience.

I still think there should be a new option to put individual brushes outside of BSP builder.
Non-solid cylinder with 64 sides will always cause BSP cuts.
So the BSP cuts actually came from non-solid cylinders because of the BSP rebuild step fix as said in Marco888 comment.

@Leo
I wan't to avoid that, too. The map might fail to load if I add something that is only supported by 227j.
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