logo
Main

Forums

Downloads

Unreal-Netiquette

Donate for Oldunreal:
Donate

borderline

Links to our wiki:
Wiki

Walkthrough

Links

Tutorials

Unreal Reference

Usermaps

borderline

Contact us:
Submit News
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Some words about 227 (and static meshes) (Read 7841 times)
Smirftsch
Forum Administrator
*****
Offline



Posts: 7335
Location: at home
Joined: Apr 30th, 1998
Gender: Male
Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Nov 7th, 2010 at 8:23pm
Print Post  
This is some information about coming 227g.

I noticed this "problem" already with some of the testers, so to avoid that this "wrong idea" about 227g becomes a common mistake, here some words.

Although we have a lot of features and additions in 227g many people know from UE2. 227g is NOT UE2 and this is NO UE2 CONTEST.
Of course its quite normal and I understand that because of the known features a comparison with UE2 can't be completely avoided, but you need to realize that it is not UE2 and it never will be.

A good example for "misuse" are the static meshes. During the development time we made the static meshes work almost perfectly, but only almost. There are some Engine based limitations which we can't change without rewriting a lot of the base rendering system and that is (at least currently) entirely out of question, if even possible at all for our small team without me being allowed to share render sourcecode and that's very unlikely.
So static meshes were meant as expansion, as addition to bsp, to avoid a lot of problems especially with tricky bsp building but it was never meant to be and it can't be a full replacement for bsp like it is in >=UE2.
We fixed a lot of problems with bsp building and we reduced f.e. very much the appearance of bsp holes, but instead that this is appreciated people try to use now static meshes at any cost because they handle it like in UE2.
Of course avoids the use of static meshes a lot of problems in 227g too like in UE2, but the base rendering is still construed to bsp in 227g's UE1.
The answer for this example is to use bsp where it is possible and to use static meshes if necessary or if it makes sense. This will produce the best results in stability and performance (for the engine).

I'm sure there are quite a lot of other examples like these, so please, keep in mind that this is a fixed and extended UE1 engine and not a limited UE2. Of course we try to make it the best possible and if things can be improved we always try to do it, but there are limits.

The target was and is to make the game we all love the best possible, not to create a new engine or even game. Also the extensions were made to reach this target and not to become some UE2 alike although it can't be denied that a lot of ideas were taken over from modern games and of course UE2 too.
  

Sometimes you have to lose a fight to win the war.
Back to top
WWWICQ  
IP Logged
 
Hellkeeper
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Soulless Automaton

Posts: 2613
Location: France
Joined: May 21st, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #1 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 9:28pm
Print Post  
I figured this out after trying a few stuff with SMs



Too much is simply too much. This is an old engine.
  

You must construct additional pylons.
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
creavion
Senior Member
****
Offline


Waiting for the final
release (Bankai)!

Posts: 360
Location: SmirtFISH Fanboy
Joined: Oct 12th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #2 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 9:34pm
Print Post  
Well, at least my beach map has to be finished with SMs as terrain pieces, even if I splitt them to very small pieces, no other way there, otherwise I can nearly rebuild the half map from ground up.
Is that railing there each one mesh?
  

UT99.org Community Mappack 2:&&http://www.ut99.org/utr/infopage.html
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Hellkeeper
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Soulless Automaton

Posts: 2613
Location: France
Joined: May 21st, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #3 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 10:05pm
Print Post  
Yes, each little column is a mesh.

As for the terrain, I guss you could still convert it to a brush and add/subtract it in a traditional way...
  

You must construct additional pylons.
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
creavion
Senior Member
****
Offline


Waiting for the final
release (Bankai)!

Posts: 360
Location: SmirtFISH Fanboy
Joined: Oct 12th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #4 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 10:23pm
Print Post  
Hellkeeper wrote on Nov 7th, 2010 at 10:05pm:
Yes, each little column is a mesh.

As for the terrain, I guss you could still convert it to a brush and add/subtract it in a traditional way...

I have build the Terrain out of Brush sheets and SMs have btw a limited amount of useable materials.
  

UT99.org Community Mappack 2:&&http://www.ut99.org/utr/infopage.html
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Turboman.
God Member
Developer Team
*****
Offline


I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Posts: 842
Location: Somewhere else
Joined: Feb 4th, 2003
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #5 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 11:26pm
Print Post  
Hellkeeper wrote on Nov 7th, 2010 at 9:28pm:
I figured this out after trying a few stuff with SMs[/URL]

Too much is simply too much. This is an old engine.


wow looking at the smoothness of each column, i'd say even ue2 wouldn't be able to handle that properly Shocked


Still, i've had almost no issues with staticmeshes, overall i'd say they're very good as they are. Ofcourse i'm not trying to pull of entire ue2 stuff with them, but with moderate usage i got a fairly bugfree (at least to me) result.
  
Back to top
WWWICQ  
IP Logged
 
Smirftsch
Forum Administrator
*****
Offline



Posts: 7335
Location: at home
Joined: Apr 30th, 1998
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #6 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 5:59am
Print Post  
lol, well, don't get me wrong. I never intended to say that our meshes are "bad". I only wanted to make clear that there are maybe some things which we just can't do or fix if you compare to UE2 f.e..
I want to avoid disappointments or wrong expectations. We are no high paid development team with dozens of professional members, we are just "some people from at home" like you, we have jobs, we have school, we have bills to pay and not unlimited free time.
Also we have the problem that it is only me with access to the sources.
Dots works his ass off to pre-build and work out many things and I'm building it in then. A lot of the new features are based on his work and that restriction means a multiple times more work as it could be if I'd be allowed to share at least parts.
Or take UTGLR, I'm sure Chris could make it a multiple times more efficient and extend it way better if he could work on the render.dll too.

I just wanted to make you aware about that, people seem to forget that we reached already fantastic things we never dreamed of.
« Last Edit: Nov 8th, 2010 at 8:04am by Smirftsch »  

Sometimes you have to lose a fight to win the war.
Back to top
WWWICQ  
IP Logged
 
Hellkeeper
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Soulless Automaton

Posts: 2613
Location: France
Joined: May 21st, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #7 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 4:57pm
Print Post  
Turboman. wrote on Nov 7th, 2010 at 11:26pm:
Hellkeeper wrote on Nov 7th, 2010 at 9:28pm:
I figured this out after trying a few stuff with SMs[/URL]

Too much is simply too much. This is an old engine.


wow looking at the smoothness of each column, i'd say even ue2 wouldn't be able to handle that properly Shocked


Actually, each column is 256 polys, which is a very low number of UE2 SMs. The main problem here is that the node count goes through the roof because just this staircase (and really, all there is is on the screenshot) features 86 columns, each with two small bsp prisms to link it to the ramps. One full ramp is already 178 brushes and 43 meshes, which means a maximum of  11 008 polys just for meshes on just this staircase and nothing else (the map is only a big empty cube with these stairs).
So yeah... The engine is not really suited for this.

However, this means we will be able to create decoration meshes on the fly with no converting or anything needed Textures will be adjustable as we will through brush conversions, and allt his also means less BSP cuts, less BSP artifacts and an overall more stable and flexible engine. I hope some great maps will take advantage of all this Smiley
  

You must construct additional pylons.
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Mister_Prophet
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 59
Joined: Nov 27th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #8 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 11:38pm
Print Post  
Hey, I'm just jazzed that you've got static meshes   Grin
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
KeeperUTX
God Member
*****
Offline


Magician of Fire

Posts: 605
Location: Slovenia
Joined: Mar 15th, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #9 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 5:46pm
Print Post  
The 227g version is server-side, right? That means that it gives more advantages to people that like servering (?)
  

Azhir uval nutarus. Azhir mudas ethanul. Dalektharu il dask daku. Riftuuz e thara samanar utamus. Elas umanes azarathan rakas ibna.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smirftsch
Forum Administrator
*****
Offline



Posts: 7335
Location: at home
Joined: Apr 30th, 1998
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #10 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 6:47pm
Print Post  
it's an update for both server and client.
  

Sometimes you have to lose a fight to win the war.
Back to top
WWWICQ  
IP Logged
 
KeeperUTX
God Member
*****
Offline


Magician of Fire

Posts: 605
Location: Slovenia
Joined: Mar 15th, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #11 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 3:17pm
Print Post  
(=Cool=)
  

Azhir uval nutarus. Azhir mudas ethanul. Dalektharu il dask daku. Riftuuz e thara samanar utamus. Elas umanes azarathan rakas ibna.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dozey
God Member
*****
Offline


I love cleaning The Sunspire
with my mop.

Posts: 609
Location: Poland
Joined: Aug 12th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #12 - Apr 15th, 2011 at 3:14pm
Print Post  
I found a problem with lighting on the static meshes. Even if I rebuild geometry and lighting problem don't want to leave and I've got dark static meshes. Okay I like Dark Match game type but I don't want to see this on my map that default brightness is about 170 points Sad
It don't look very well.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
GreatEmerald
Oldunreal MasterPoster
*
Offline


The Great Emerald

Posts: 5361
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Joined: May 21st, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #13 - Apr 15th, 2011 at 7:11pm
Print Post  
Vertex lighting. You can't do anything about it, it's like that in every UE game.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Hellkeeper
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Soulless Automaton

Posts: 2613
Location: France
Joined: May 21st, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Some words about 227 (and static meshes)
Reply #14 - Apr 16th, 2011 at 2:56pm
Print Post  
Dozey wrote on Apr 15th, 2011 at 3:14pm:
I found a problem with lighting on the static meshes. Even if I rebuild geometry and lighting problem don't want to leave and I've got dark static meshes. Okay I like Dark Match game type but I don't want to see this on my map that default brightness is about 170 points Sad
It don't look very well.


Lighting on Static Mesh and decorations are not calculated for each point on the surface and compiled into lightmaps as it is done with BSP. Light is calculated at each of the vertices of a polygon (each of the 3 points of  triangle), and then blended together.
So if everything is black, make sure you don't have all your vertices in a wall or in the floor. It might be useful to clip the mesh in half to have more vertices and thus more lighting definiton.

This gets me wondering : would it be possible to allow lightmap compilation for meshes ? UE2 allowed for imported custom lightmaps to be used on static meshes and this was pretty much the only way to have perfect lighting on static meshes; something like that might be nice if it's at all possible.
  

You must construct additional pylons.
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Send TopicPrint
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo